Last Updated: December 23rd, 2009

Transcript of Voice of Community chat

Topic: VOC meeting #17
Date: October 28th, 2009
Time: 4:00 PM Central European Time
Duration: 1 hour
Chat client: Skype
Participants:
  • Tushar Joshi (India)
  • Jiří Kovalský (Czech Republic)
  • Michel Graciano (Brazil)

  • Agenda:
    1. Update: 6.8 stabilization [Jiri, 5 minutes]
    2. Update: netbeans.org migration [Jiri, 5 minutes]
    3. Discussion: Potential VOC issues [Tushar, Michel - 45 minutes]
    4. Q&A, [all, 5 minutes]

    Minutes:

  • Tushar asked for some tutorials/materials/support for a NB RCP course in his town.
  • Annabel and Tushar still didn't receive their t-shirts, Jiri will try one more last attempt.
  • Jiri pointed out that Oracle unveiled some high level plans with Sun Microsystems' core technologies including NetBeans.
  • Jiri gave an update on stabilization progress of NetBeans 6.8.
  • Jiri informed the team about migration of NetBeans infrastructure scheduled for week of November 2nd.
  • Michel initiated discussion about how NetBeans releases are patched and supported.
  • Action items:

  • Jiri to contact web/sustaining teams to clarify NetBeans patching process.
  • Both Tushar & Michel to blog about recent Oracle's announcement describing plan for NetBeans.
  • Transcript:

    16:16:49Tushar Joshi: I am the leader of JUGNagpur, JUG of our city, I was wondering whether we can conduct a NetBeans Platform course in our city, as Geerjan and other do. Any thing you can suggest will be value addition for me
    16:18:02Jiří Kovalský: Well, and have you already talked to Geertjan about it?
    16:18:35Tushar Joshi: no this thought just came to my mind and you are with me so opened the topic, do you suggest to talk with Geertjan?
    16:19:22… Michel is here
    16:19:34Jiří Kovalský: Yes, he is in charge of all this. I also suggest to visit http://edu.netbeans.org and join the Edu Community.
    16:19:46Tushar Joshi: I am part of it
    16:19:50… edu i mean
    16:19:57Jiří Kovalský: There are also many useful links to various materials.
    16:20:03Tushar Joshi: ok will send a mail to edu for this, thanks for the suggestion
    16:20:04Jiří Kovalský: I see.
    16:20:21… So, you are subscribed to some of the lists?
    16:20:37Tushar Joshi: nbedu and docs
    16:21:01… I used to teach Java for 5 years with NetBeans
    16:21:24* Jiří Kovalský invited michel.graciano
    16:21:29Jiří Kovalský: OK. That would be best. Geertjan can give you more information.
    16:21:47Michel Graciano: Hi
    16:21:59… Sorry for delay
    16:22:14Jiří Kovalský: If you need some giveaways like t-shirts we could send you something for your students. :-)
    16:22:16… Hi Michel!
    16:22:39Tushar Joshi: BTW do you know I havent got the t-shirt yet :)
    16:22:48… Hi Michel
    16:23:00Jiří Kovalský: It's OK. You made it in academic 20 minutes. :-)
    16:23:06… What?
    16:23:10Tushar Joshi: No issues, I was prepared for this meeting even if its get late today
    16:23:22Jiří Kovalský: Annabel said she didn't get anything too! :-(
    16:23:57Michel Graciano: I already got my t-shirt, and I live in an distant place... :)
    16:24:03… I think I am really lucky
    16:24:22Tushar Joshi: I think I have to visit Czech/Prague now to grab one
    16:24:28Jiří Kovalský: :-D
    16:24:31Michel Graciano: :)
    16:24:54Jiří Kovalský: Well, I can send you another try. It's a long time already since I sent it.
    16:25:11Tushar Joshi: Isn't there any tracking number?
    16:25:11* Jiří Kovalský has changed the chat topic to "NetBeans Voice of Community meeting #17"
    16:25:19Jiří Kovalský: Unfortunately not.
    16:25:45… OK guys, let me officially start our VOC meeting #17 today. :-)
    16:26:01… How are you today? It's a public holiday here so I am celebrating creation of Czechoslovakia in 1918 by work. :-)
    16:26:27Tushar Joshi: Best Wishes for the occassion Jiri
    16:27:45Jiří Kovalský: Yes, thanks. BTW, Oracle shared some high level plans with Sun's core technologies today including some info regarding NetBeans. Are you aware of that?
    16:27:58Tushar Joshi: I am not yet.
    16:28:01Jiří Kovalský: See last page #5 here: http://www.oracle.com/ocom/groups/public/documents/webcontent/038563.pdf
    16:28:05Tushar Joshi: and I am all ears now
    16:28:09Michel Graciano: I am not aware too
    16:28:45Jiří Kovalský: "NetBeans is expected to provide an additional open source option and complement to the two free tools Oracle already offers..." "...developers will be able to use whichever free tool they are most comfortable with for pure Java and Java EE development: JDeveloper, Enterprise Pack for Eclipse, or NetBeans." Does not sound very depressing, does it? ;-)
    16:29:22Michel Graciano: sounds really good for the start
    16:29:25Tushar Joshi: yes this is light (hope)
    16:29:43Michel Graciano: they are doing what always do, take the market choose the best tool
    16:30:13… now is time to keep doing our best to prove we should be the choosen one in the future
    16:30:14… :D
    16:30:38Jiří Kovalský: On the other hand I have read speculations that Oracle always uses this style of statements and one has to read between lines.
    16:30:52… Yes, that's right Michel.
    16:31:32… Anyway, I still believe that Oracle does not want ~710k active users to all migrate to Eclipse.
    16:32:19Michel Graciano: no, I don't believe in that. I am pretty sure the future is that JDevelopr and NetBeans will be merged, probably NB should be the base for JDeveloper tools
    16:32:52… Geertjan blogged about JDeveloper and NetBeans last week, an really good article should I say
    16:32:56Jiří Kovalský: Yes, what is your take on this Tushar?
    16:33:14Tushar Joshi: I also liked what Geertjan wrote,
    16:33:32… I like to believe what Michel is saying
    16:34:35Jiří Kovalský: OK. Thanks for your opinion guys. So, let's get started. First of all I wanted to update you on the stabilization progress of NetBeans 6.8.
    16:34:37Tushar Joshi: Again, I think it is the community and users of NetBeans which will prove its worth and no company could shut it down easily now
    16:35:24Jiří Kovalský: Users are nice but they don't generate money directly in this free open source world. :-)
    16:36:02… Now to the agenda. ;-) We still have high income of P2s and P3s in some areas and the next milestone (Code Freeze) is rapidly approaching. It is scheduled for November 15th and by that date we need to have 0 P1s, 0 P2s (or waived) and P3s for modules under development at 2230 (now we have ~2550). In order to reach CF quality criteria we will have to increase current bug fixing rate to ~600 resolved bugs weekly. It will not be easy so cross your fingers or help us fix some bugs. :-) BTW, we already had to postpone RC1 by approximately 2 weeks. Do you think we can make it for the FCS on December 10th?
    16:37:14Michel Graciano: What is the criteria for FCS? I just can't find it now
    16:39:06Jiří Kovalský: It's the same as for Code Freeze. See here: http://wiki.netbeans.org/NB68QualityCriteria#section-NB68QualityCriteria-CodeFreezeEntryFCSQC
    16:41:38… Great, the second item on our today's agenda is migration of the NetBeans site.
    16:41:40Tushar Joshi: This will really depend on the current bandwidth of developers we have on the project. Can we get any insight of community rate of fixing bugs?
    16:42:37Jiří Kovalský: Hm, all I can suggest it to look at NetFIX Pool: http://wiki.netbeans.org/NetFIXIssues
    16:43:40Tushar Joshi: From that data what I can conclude is community contribution is negligible even if it has started
    16:45:44Jiří Kovalský: Yes, that's unfortunately right. On the other hand community contributes significant portion of new bugs. :-)
    16:46:12Michel Graciano: :D
    16:46:51Jiří Kovalský: OK, now the migration...
    16:46:58… As you might know we decided to postpone start of the migration because of the 6.8 Beta release but there is one more change needed now backwards. :-) So, the whole thing will begin on Monday - November 2nd at 5:00 p.m. CET and we expect it will take whole week. Please note that many services will be not available during that time. In short, all mailing lists will be unavailable, Wiki will be switched to "read-only" mode, IssueZilla will be in the "read-only" mode (http://qa.netbeans.org/issues) too, only limited static web content will be provided and dynamic project specific pages will be inaccessible including accounts/users administration. On the other hand HG server will operate normally + Plugin Portal and web forums as well. More information is available here: http://wiki.netbeans.org/NewNBWhatIsMigrated So please be ready to assist our community via forums/tweets/blogs, answer their questions/complaints with patience and calm down every speculation that NetBeans project was closed by Oracle. :-)
    16:48:30Tushar Joshi: This is noted Jiri.
    16:48:43Jiří Kovalský: Great, thanks.
    16:49:47… Enough of my monologue. What about you? Do you have something to discuss today? I didn't see any VOC issue candidates so it looks like our meeting will be shorter than usually.
    16:51:24Tushar Joshi: Yes I do not have any issues for today
    16:51:35Jiří Kovalský: What about you Michel?
    16:52:02Michel Graciano: No issue for today too, the only comment as I sent before is about some users conerns about patches
    16:52:29… I know that NB doens't keep patches for old releases
    16:52:33Jiří Kovalský: What do you mean?
    16:52:38Michel Graciano: one minute
    16:54:02… there is an email named [nbusers] 6.8M2 horrors
    16:55:01Jiří Kovalský: I see, that's what you mean.
    16:55:03Michel Graciano: I sent to voc mainlist some days ago
    16:55:14… my question is quiet simple
    16:55:16Jiří Kovalský: Well, it's always a tradeoff.
    16:55:29Michel Graciano: maybe we can get these write somewhere
    16:55:38… even with Sun payed supported linked
    16:56:26… maybe you can discuss this internally with some Sun guys, how to document these rules, how many patches will be launched or something like that
    16:57:11Jiří Kovalský: Well, there are no strict rules regarding patches.
    16:57:26… But typically it works like this:
    16:57:45Michel Graciano: I have no idea what we can do, but keep the things clear to users, that just latest release will have some patches for example
    16:58:14Jiří Kovalský: If we release new version and we didn't make to fix all serious bugs due to various reasons we try to provide Update via UC as soon as possible.
    16:58:33… Do you remember 6.7 and 6.7.1 coming only 1 month later?
    16:58:46Michel Graciano: yes, I remember
    16:58:54… I had some severe issues that time
    16:59:07Jiří Kovalský: Sometimes we delivered two updates and exceptionally 3.
    17:00:15… The rest is completely up to individual developers if they have left some serious P1 bug in the product, it's just about convincing them to deliver patched module via UC.
    17:00:35… The big Updates are done by Sustaining team.
    17:00:55… Well, the team are just two developers. :-)
    17:00:55Michel Graciano: well, maybe we can add some advise here http://www.netbeans.org/kb/support.html
    17:01:52… in Community Support for NetBeans Software subtitle, that patches will be released just for latest (and with exceptions for old releases?)
    17:01:56Jiří Kovalský: Right. If something is critical for somebody they can always buy paid support which will help us directly BTW! :-)
    17:02:14Michel Graciano: it makes easy to answer users from mainlints for example
    17:02:31… yes, if you see the entire thread, I talked to user about paied support
    17:02:40… I pointed to this page as well
    17:02:59Jiří Kovalský: OK, I can ask our web team to clarify this practise.
    17:03:06Michel Graciano: but users want the things for free (as you already probably realised)
    17:03:27… and make some "rules" clear, makes the things easy in the future
    17:03:46… my concern is not about the patch, we already discussed it before
    17:03:48Jiří Kovalský: Sure, I take it as an Action Item to clarify this on our web.
    17:03:53Michel Graciano: is just about advise people about this
    17:04:24… IMHO it is fair to users
    17:04:42Jiří Kovalský: You mean the fact that no support is provided for older releases except paid support, right?
    17:05:05Michel Graciano: yes, that patches will be available (or not) just for latest release
    17:05:34… if we need some fix for old release an paied support is available
    17:06:32… maybe it can change in the future, but is what we have now, so is what should be clear for users
    17:06:51… well, this is it from me today
    17:06:54… :)
    17:07:35Jiří Kovalský: OK. Thanks.
    17:07:43… BTW, what about your jobs guys? Also having some deadlines ahead?
    17:08:01Michel Graciano: yes, all my deadlines is for yesterday
    17:08:03… :)
    17:08:07… as usual
    17:08:12Tushar Joshi: :)
    17:09:05Michel Graciano: and I hope the Oracle today's annoucement make your week more friendly
    17:09:08Tushar Joshi: I have one personal deadline of my PMP exam on 15 Dec, project related deadlines are always there as Michel said
    17:09:26Michel Graciano: all of yours (NB people) in the truth
    17:09:38Tushar Joshi: Yes Oracle related news is ray of hope which I will blog today on my blog
    17:09:50Michel Graciano: :)
    17:10:05… will do this too, I will wait you and link you
    17:10:26Tushar Joshi: ok
    17:11:18Jiří Kovalský: He, here is what Fabrizio Giudici thinks about it: http://weblogs.java.net/blog/fabriziogiudici/archive/2009/10/28/first-public-statement-oracle-about-netbeans-or-not
    17:11:50… OK, so it was nice talking to you guys. If you don't have anything else to discuss today we can close our meeting.
    17:12:46Michel Graciano: See you soon
    17:12:53Jiří Kovalský: And update your calendars: we will meet on Friday - November 20th next time.
    17:13:06Tushar Joshi: sure, see you all
    17:13:21Jiří Kovalský: OK, bye guys!


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