Transcript of Voice of Community chat

Topic: VOC meeting #14
Date: July 21st, 2009
Time: 4:00 PM Central European Time
Duration: 1 hour
Chat client: NetBeans (Chat Window)
Participants:
  • Annabel Melongo (USA)
  • Jiří Kovalský (Czech Republic)
  • Michel Graciano (Brazil)
  • Tushar Joshi (India)

  • Agenda:
    1. Update: 6.8 features readiness [Jiri, 5 minutes]
    2. Review: Tushar's article about VOC [all, 10 minutes]
    3. Discussion: Potential VOC issues [Annabel, Tushar, Michel - 40 minutes]
    4. Q&A, 6.7 t-shirts :-) [all, 5 minutes]

    Minutes:

  • Jiri updated VOC team about latest progress of NetBeans 6.8 release development.
  • Team discussed Tushar's article and some suggestions were noted.
  • Michel's issues: #169522 (l10n problem in RCP) - not a VOC issue but Michel wants to be involved, missing Developer Collaboration feature - as designed, new owner welcome
  • Annabel's issues: #169820 (migration path from VWP & Woodstock) - need to gather user feedback in the issue first, #156766 (dependency bug in Identity Manager) - not a NetBeans issue, #160747 (disabled "Continue" debugger button) - fixed
  • Tushar's issues: #159555 (Eclipse-like WorkSpaces) - RFE contribution from community is being evaluated, Eclipse vs. NB comparison - let's answer this ourselves
  • Ryan de Laplante's issues: #170728 (bug in CSS editor) - assigned to developer + Jiri to watch its progress
  • VOC Captains will receive a free NetBeans 6.7 t-shirt.
  • Action items:

  • Tushar will update the article about VOC program and send everybody a new version.
  • Jiri to monitor progress in #159555 and push it forward if needed.
  • Tushar will answer the blog post.
  • Transcript:

    August 21, 20094:00 PM
    Michel Graciano4:00 PM
    Hi people
    Jiří Kovalský4:01 PM
    Hello everyone! I am pleased to kick off our today's already fourteenth VOC meeting.
    Annabel Melongo4:01 PM
    Hi there!
    Tushar Joshi4:01 PM
    Hi
    Jiří Kovalský4:01 PM
    Let's not waste time and get started.
    First of all I would like to give you as usually an update on progress of development works on NetBeans 6.8. On Wednesday there was a feature readiness review meeting and so far majority looks promising. CND area is in a good shape with exception of DBX integration. PHP 5.3 support will be ready by FF and bug target reached by CF. Maven improvements will be also complete except Kenai integration. While J2EE especially Java EE 6 features will be implemented on time, some lower priority things will have to be dropped due to current high number of bugs and unpredictable income after 6.8 Beta. Enhancements planned for Kenai integration (1:1 chat, Instant Notifications) are in danger because appropriate API changes on Kenai's side are not done yet. Jira integration will end up on Stable UC. Editor team finished implementing big improvements and switched to normal bug fixing mode. An attempt to fix "Indexes out of sync with file systems" (#168237) will be made. New Ruby features are almost complete. We will evaluate update of JRuby (to be released in September) in 6.8. Finally in DB area, both code completion and Run SQL file action will be done by FF. ERD will be updated if time permits. So, that's where we are.
    Any questions regarding this topic? Any concerns?
    Annabel Melongo4:03 PM
    Jiri, what are 'FF' and 'CF'
    Jiří Kovalský4:04 PM
    FF = Feature Freeze
    CF = Code Freeze
    Annabel Melongo4:04 PM
    tanks
    Jiří Kovalský4:05 PM
    Other questions guys? NetCAT will fully start on Septemeber 4th.
    Michel Graciano4:05 PM
    No questions
    Tushar Joshi4:05 PM
    No questions
    Annabel Melongo4:05 PM
    none on my side
    Jiří Kovalský4:06 PM
    OK. Now, let's move to the Tushar's article.
    First of all, I would like to use this opportunity to thank Tushar for his work on this task and Annabel for polishing the language. I really like the article. I didn't respond on the VOC mailing list intentionally because I wanted to discuss this online during today's chat. So my comments/suggestions follow. 1. I would maybe stress out that we want to reach out both "close" community (registered bug reporters, list subscribers) and "far" community i.e. people only blogging about NetBeans, commenting on external servers etc.
    2. People like examples. I think it's great you highlighted the fixed issues but I think some concrete achievement with a short story/evolution would be good. Something that average community member would say: "Hm, it's really a useful initiative. I also want to be a VOC Captain, please, please!"
    3. It was a good idea to include your quotes. What about sharing what each of you considers a good thing that wouldn't be achieved if VOC didn't exist? It can also be a criticism! If you feel that it's not worth it or have a suggestion for improvement, just let your voice be heard. If you wanted to quote me then please use this: "I perceive VOC as a true dialog between with NetBeans community. VOC Captains get regular updates on development progress, plans, important issues and we receive feedback on what is bothering NetBeans users at the moment during the whole release cycle. Of course NetBeans engineers can't fix everything but we can also turn to NetFIX developers! Meeting transcripts are public which clearly supports our goal to have a true open source project with vibrant community." says Jiri Kovalsky.
    4. Finally, I miss some call for action. Don't you want to encourage people to get involved with you or help you somehow? "No" is a valid answer of course. This is just an idea. So, these are my suggestions and topics for discussion. Would you like to use some of them? Do you have other opinion? And when can you Tushar approximately finish the article?
    Tushar Joshi4:08 PM
    I found all your suggestions value additions to the current article and will want to include all
    Michel Graciano4:09 PM
    I agree too, really good ideas Jiri
    Annabel Melongo4:09 PM
    I like that every member's quotation should be expressed. Michel can you send your quote, as well?
    Tushar Joshi4:09 PM
    I can finish the new additions to article in next week and Annabel will need some time to review and correct the phrases (my english is too indianized :-)
    Michel has already sent his quotation
    Jiří Kovalský4:10 PM
    Great, thanks. BTW, have you noticed Michel that Annabel cut your quote out?
    Annabel Melongo4:10 PM
    however, I don't see how feasible will be the story behind each issue....
    given the facts that we have all forgotten about them....
    Jiří Kovalský4:10 PM
    I don't want a story behind each issue! Just one is enough.
    Annabel Melongo4:10 PM
    ok, that's feasible
    another thing...
    Jiří Kovalský4:11 PM
    Just one that pops up most easily.
    Annabel Melongo4:11 PM
    I thought of also adding the "WON'T" issues at the end of the document so people know what was also rejected...
    I also think that those 3 categories should be put in tabbed pane once online...
    Jiří Kovalský4:12 PM
    Yes, it would also give an overview how much was rejected vs. accepted. So kind of a statistic.
    Annabel Melongo4:12 PM
    other than that, I have no more additions...
    Jiří Kovalský4:13 PM
    Tabbed pane? You think this would go to Wiki?
    Annabel Melongo4:13 PM
    where will it go? I have something similar in NetFix....
    *** We have
    Jiří Kovalský4:14 PM
    Oh, I though NetFIX was your from now on... :-)
    This article would most probably end up as HTML on netbeans.org.
    Michel Graciano4:15 PM
    just one typo on article
    Netbeans should be NetBenas
    Jiří Kovalský4:15 PM
    Then it will be linked from news item and weekly newsletter.
    Michel Graciano4:15 PM
    ops
    NetBeans
    Annabel Melongo4:15 PM
    but there's a way of putting tabbed pane in an html... send me the article and I'll do that using javascript....
    Jiří Kovalský4:15 PM
    Yes, that's what I also wanted to point out. Always please NetBeans!!!
    Tushar?
    Tushar Joshi4:16 PM
    Yes I noted it now
    I will share the google doc with all, Annabel can you update that with your version so all can edit
    Jiří Kovalský4:17 PM
    OK. Anybody else has some more recommendations for Tushar?
    Annabel Melongo4:17 PM
    sure...
    none on my side.
    Jiří Kovalský4:17 PM
    The chat via Kenai feels somehow slow today...
    Annabel Melongo4:18 PM
    yes I noticed it also...
    Michel Graciano4:18 PM
    I thought was my internet connection...
    Annabel Melongo4:18 PM
    that's a valid issue
    Jiří Kovalský4:18 PM
    It's maybe overloaded. OK, then let's proceed to #3: VOC feedback. Michel goes first!
    Michel Graciano4:19 PM
    good, first of all the issue http://netbeans.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=169522
    today we have the IDE and Platform in several languages
    and it is important make easy for platform projects get it for free
    this issues makes necessary an hack at build.xml to make it works
    Jiří Kovalský4:21 PM
    OK, as for the localization bug in the platform (#169522) I will not probably please you. I have asked Richard Michalsky (assigned developer) about it and he clarified several points to me. Firstly, he promptly discussed this with Jesse Glick (one of the NetBeans Core authors) and Jesse discouraged Richard from implementing that RFE because nobody actually knows how it should work. Secondly, there is no specification and reaching a compromise would take several weeks. Finally, Richard provided a customizable Ant task in that issue so people can workaround the problem. Due to these reasons I have to reject this VOC issue for now. I am sorry Michel.
    Michel Graciano4:22 PM
    I understand. I will try to figure out how to make it possible, how to customize the project and try to propose an spec about it to make it possible
    At least there is an useful workaround
    Jiří Kovalský4:23 PM
    Yes, what we need is a consensus and specification.
    Michel Graciano4:23 PM
    yes, I know about that
    Jiří Kovalský4:23 PM
    Do you want to discuss the collaboration issue too?
    Michel Graciano4:24 PM
    yes
    several users call about this tools again
    at least at UC
    Jiří Kovalský4:24 PM
    So, regarding the first issue (missing Developer Collaboration feature) I can only say that this is as designed and we are not going to invest into it anymore. In addition to that the share.java.net XMPP server has been discontinued and as you know the Chat Window took over this functionality. We certainly don't want to support two competing technologies and lack of resources does not influence this much. Fortunately, there is a workaround - install the Developer Collaboration plugin to NetBeans 6.5 and then import it into 6.7. Are you aware of this? Still such person will have to setup own XMPP server. See http://wiki.netbeans.org/CollabServer for more information.
    What's so sexy about that? Do you understand that?
    Michel Graciano4:26 PM
    Some features users miss, as collaboration file edition
    I, personally don't use it so much, but several users use these kind of feature
    Jiří Kovalský4:27 PM
    Is it really so useful? I would rather think it's only entertaining.
    Michel Graciano4:28 PM
    I never worked in an distributed project, so it is not useful for me but looks like several users miss this feature
    as you can see in nbuser mainling list
    this was not the first time I saw it
    Jiří Kovalský4:29 PM
    Anyway, I am sure that if anybody wants to take over that feature, s/he should join NetDEV and I can arrange that.
    OK, anything else for today Michel?
    Michel Graciano4:29 PM
    no
    that is it
    Jiří Kovalský4:30 PM
    OK, now Annabel. The floor is your!
    Annabel Melongo4:30 PM
    sure...
    1. http://netbeans.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=169820 This issue is about Woodstock. However though the issue is about woodstock's migration, the main idea is that people don't want it to go away. There was a famous post last week about this: Woodstock put to death. http://www.nabble.com/Visual-Web-put-to-death-to24934100.html#a24934100
    Jiří Kovalský4:32 PM
    Well, #169820 (migration path from VWP & Woodstock) is a hard nut to crack. There is no doubt about its popularity because the RFE received 27 votes within only 17 days. Unfortunately, it's not a piece of cake to decide which migration way to go and then support it by features. Hence I would recommend to adhere to Petr Jiricka's (J2EE Technologies Engineering manager) call and add comments on what's better: whether sticking to the latest specifications or spending minimal effort on migration. Once we collect this representative data we will be able to better determine the next steps. Does my answer satisfy you Annabel?
    Tushar Joshi4:32 PM
    Woodstock was considered as a productivity tool and its discontinuation is misfortunate
    Annabel Melongo4:33 PM
    so you advice to ask people for suggestions?
    Jiří Kovalský4:34 PM
    You know, this is really high level stuff completely beyond my or Petr's influence. I ask for answering Petr's question.
    Annabel Melongo4:34 PM
    where is that question posted, so we can direct users there...
    Jiří Kovalský4:36 PM
    Only with 20 similar answers we can go and escalate it to higher instancies which might have decide what to do ...
    In that issue!
    Annabel Melongo4:36 PM
    What Petr's question?
    can you verbalize it?
    Jiří Kovalský4:37 PM
    Petr Jiricka says: "I would like to ask everyone interested in this topic, which of the above are you interested in? Is it more important for you to use the latest specs and practices, or to spend only minimal effort on the migration? Thanks for your insights."
    Annabel Melongo4:37 PM
    Ok, we'll keep this for future posts...
    Jiří Kovalský4:38 PM
    Great, so let's move on.
    Annabel Melongo4:38 PM
    2. http://netbeans.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=156766 I a little confused about this one. Jaroslav said Identity Manager was supported until NB6.5, you said the issue has been fixed but I didn't see nothing on issuezilla toward that end. So where are we on this?
    Jiří Kovalský4:39 PM
    Regarding the Identity Manager plugin's installation problem (#156766) I can only repeat what I replied to you Annabel via e-mail on August 19th. If we look at the issue we find out that "stokah" user (one of the complainers) does not seem to respond to Vitezslav's call for his messages.log file. The plugin is very old and as such can't work correctly in the recent NetBeans versions. Please note that its version 8.1 for NetBeans 6.1 was released in June 2008 and since that there was no update. Even if we get the messages.log we will probably only verify that the problem is caused by some obsolete dependencies in the plugin hence the best thing for the user (or you :-) is to turn to the Identity Manager project [1] itself. I am sorry Annabel but this is all I can do about it. [1] https://identitymanageride.dev.java.net
    Michel Graciano4:40 PM
    yes
    just need to update the dependency version to get this error away
    Jiří Kovalský4:41 PM
    Hopefully this would be satisfactory Michel.
    Annabel Melongo4:41 PM
    ok. Next issue?
    Jiří Kovalský4:41 PM
    Any more questions Annabel?
    Yes, please.
    Annabel Melongo4:42 PM
    http://netbeans.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=160747 the issue is random sometimes it happened sometimes not.
    It would be nice though if this can be stabilized since debugging is a critical aspect. What do you think?
    Jiří Kovalský4:43 PM
    OK, frankly your last issue about disabled "Continue" button when debugger breakpoint is hit (#160747) is a good catch. However, since Martin Entlicher (NetBeans Debugger developer) marked it as a duplicate of #167776 let's talk about the latter issue. Can you or somebody else reproduce it? As you can read, Martin fixed it hopefully by the third changeset and since then (August 8th) no more reports occurred. Hence this is certainly not a VOC issue.
    Annabel Melongo4:43 PM
    What do you mean?
    Jiří Kovalský4:43 PM
    I mean it's fixed.
    If not, let us know.
    Annabel Melongo4:44 PM
    It's not because nobody answers that it falls out of being a VOC issue
    why doesn't he put the 'FIXED' keyword then?
    Don't you think it would save people a lot of time ?
    Jiří Kovalský4:45 PM
    I don't understand what you say Annabel. #167776 is marked as FIXED.
    Tushar Joshi4:45 PM
    and #160747 is marked as RESOLVED, DUPLICATE
    Jiří Kovalský4:45 PM
    Exactly.
    Annabel Melongo4:46 PM
    It is? I went to the duplicate and it says 'DUPLICATE' not 'FIXED'...
    Jiří Kovalský4:46 PM
    #160747 is marked as duplicate of #167776 which is FIXED.
    Annabel Melongo4:47 PM
    ok sorry then for this...
    Jiří Kovalský4:47 PM
    Don't worry about it. Everybody can overlook something. Do you have more things for us today?
    Annabel Melongo4:48 PM
    nothing else...
    Jiří Kovalský4:48 PM
    Well, let's Tushar speak today. Tushar?
    Tushar Joshi4:48 PM
    Yes, I have all my points related to the features introduced by the competition in the IDE world
    Workspaces in NetBeans http://netbeans.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=159555
    Can this issue be included in NetDEV or better if in NetFIX
    Jiří Kovalský4:49 PM
    So, as for the NetBeans WorkSpaces RFE (#159555) I am not sure how much useful it would be. Do you need more userdirs? Anyway, I have asked Tomas Holy (NetBeans Launcher developer) to review Radoslaw's contribution.
    Tushar Joshi4:50 PM
    This is a tipical Eclipse users perspective
    The settings for each workspace are kept separate with this concept and in NetBeans this can be achieved with many user directories
    If we set all plugins to be shared and use different user directories the workspace problem is solved
    This patch solves that part and makes NetBeans similar to Eclipse workspace feature
    but these are just my suggestions to attrach people towards NetBeans
    *attract
    Jiří Kovalský4:52 PM
    OK, in such case it is slightly related to the other thing - Eclipse & NB comparison because it mentions Perspectives as well.
    Tushar Joshi4:52 PM
    yes my next point is related to first one
    I spotted a blog post comparing Eclipse and NetBeans
    and my question is shall we add all those features of Eclipse world as Enhancement issues so they will be implemented some day?
    Jiří Kovalský4:53 PM
    Did you know that Anuradha Gunasekara (DreamTeam member & NetFIX developer) developed Perspectives plugin for NetBeans 6.0 [2] and I just tried it in NetBeans 6.7 and it works. [2] http://netbeans.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=113365
    Tushar Joshi4:53 PM
    I have used that perspective plugin myself
    I also used Cubeon by Anuradha which is similar to Mylyn
    Blog with comparison, shall we add one issue per point? http://inbread.wordpress.com/2009/08/20/netbeans-vs-eclipse/
    Michel Graciano4:54 PM
    about this post, search for properties is already possible using Quick Search
    Tushar Joshi4:54 PM
    This is a tipical post by a user of outer world including comparison
    Jiří Kovalský4:54 PM
    The comparison of NetBeans vs. Eclipse is interesting but what it really needs is an apt reply in the first place. It would be good to mention Anuradha's plugin in the reply. Path to file opened in Editor is displayed in the tab's tooltip. Ruby debugger will be enhanced in 6.8. I don't understand the point of maximized splitted editors. The code completion problem either. Any taker?
    Tushar Joshi4:54 PM
    Yes I will reply to that post in details and I will need your help gathering the answers
    Michel Graciano4:54 PM
    about title, I prefer as it is
    Tushar Joshi4:54 PM
    means help from all of us
    Michel Graciano4:55 PM
    I already seen this request about title before, but it should, if implemented in the future, be customized
    Jiří Kovalský4:55 PM
    OK, please compile the answer from Michel's and my answer and forward to VOC list if more is needed. OK?
    Tushar Joshi4:56 PM
    Yes this is enough information for me to reply that post now, thanks
    thats all from my side today
    Jiří Kovalský4:56 PM
    I also don't understand why filepath would be good but I accept that different people like different things.
    Michel Graciano4:56 PM
    yes
    I agree with Jiri
    Jiří Kovalský4:57 PM
    Great. We have also got one issue from Ryan de Laplante (NetBeans Dream Team member) about incorrect syntax highlighting and error marking in CSS editor (#170728). I have reassigned it to Marek Fukala (J2EE Editors developer) for evaluation and will watch the progress.
    Before we get to open microphone I have something relaxing. I would like to reward you for your work during NetBeans 6.7 development and stabilization so I decided to send you a NetBeans 6.7 t-shirt! If you are interested, please send me your postal address and preferred size via private e-mail. Of course we have also women's t-shirts Annabel! So, anybody wants this?
    Tushar Joshi4:58 PM
    :-)
    I think we already had some discussion for this Jiri
    Michel Graciano4:59 PM
    sure
    Jiří Kovalský4:59 PM
    Of course I can get your addresses from your SCAs but prefer having your up-to-date replies with sizes.
    Tushar Joshi4:59 PM
    I only dont know the size calculation and may need some help there to figure out what size I need
    Jiří Kovalský5:00 PM
    The sizes are American so for me 178cm and 75kg L would be best.
    Tushar Joshi5:00 PM
    Actually I am waiting for a t-shirt from James Branam for being one of the first 100 bloggers in NetBeans blogging content
    Jiří Kovalský5:01 PM
    Just a hint. So, if you want, write me an e-mail. You will receive one from me Tushar.
    Tushar Joshi5:01 PM
    :-) I know Jiri
    Jiří Kovalský5:01 PM
    Now, Questions&Answers. Anybody has a last minute question?
    Michel Graciano5:01 PM
    done for today from my side
    Jiří Kovalský5:01 PM
    Thanks Michel.
    Tushar Joshi5:02 PM
    no questions from my side
    Michel Graciano5:02 PM
    just congratulation Tushar and Annabel about article
    Jiří Kovalský5:02 PM
    Thanks Tushar.
    +1 The article is very good.
    Tushar Joshi5:02 PM
    Thanks for the appreciation Jiri
    Jiří Kovalský5:03 PM
    Oops, we lost Annabel. Never mind. She will read the rest from transcript.
    Michel Graciano5:03 PM
    so guys, see you soon
    Jiří Kovalský5:03 PM
    So, enjoy your weekends and remember that our next meeting will be on September 11th!
    Michel Graciano5:03 PM
    enjoy your weekend
    Jiří Kovalský5:03 PM
    Bye bye!
    Tushar Joshi5:04 PM
    bye all


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