Transcript of Voice of Community chat

Topic: VOC meeting #13
Date: July 31st, 2009
Time: 4:00 PM Central European Time
Duration: 1 hour
Chat client: NetBeans (Chat Window)
Participants:
  • Annabel Melongo (USA)
  • Jiří Kovalský (Czech Republic)
  • Michel Graciano (Brazil)
  • Tushar Joshi (India)

  • Agenda:
    1. Update: 6.8 [Jiri, 5 minutes]
    2. Discussion: Article about VOC, suggestions? [all, 5 minutes]
    3. Discussion: Potential VOC issues [Annabel, Tushar, Michel - 45 minutes]
    4. Q&A [all, 5 minutes]

    Minutes:

  • Jiri updated VOC team about latest news with regard to NetBeans 6.8 release.
  • Let's write an article about VOC program. Everyone agreed.
  • Annabel's issues: #108684 (IDE upgrade via UC) - no consensus, #144112 (alias for DB connection) - DB team will consider it!, #168380 (debugger breakpoint problem) - fixed
  • Tushar's issues: uninstallation confusion on Mac OS X - Wiki FAQ needs update, #121950 (wrong error badges) - needs time, priority #1 for Editor team in 6.8, #124169 (default reformatting issues) - volunteer needed to compare standard vs. NB formatter
  • Tushar is creating Wiki page in our NBVOC Kenai project listing all VOC issues with current status information.
  • Action items:

  • Tushar will write an article about VOC program. Draft to be reviewed in 2 weeks. See progress in #876 in NBVOC Kenai project.
  • Tushar will update http://wiki.netbeans.org/FaqUninstallMac accordingly to be more descriptive.
  • Annabel promised help to Tushar in case he needs some...
  • Transcript:

    July 31, 20094:00 PM
    Jiří Kovalský4:00 PM
    Hello folks!
    Tushar Joshi4:00 PM
    Hi Jiri
    Jiří Kovalský4:00 PM
    Let's wait for Annabel
    Michel Graciano4:00 PM
    Hi people I can see annabel online at Skype, probably soon see will be available @Jiri, did you see an newcomer for NetFIX email?
    Jiří Kovalský4:02 PM
    Yes, I am just replying him. The thing is not only him applied! Annabel asked us to wait as her IDE is waking up...
    Michel Graciano4:04 PM
    :-)
    Annabel Melongo4:05 PM
    I'm here Hey folks... where are you?
    Jiří Kovalský4:06 PM
    We are here almost done Annabel. Am I right guys?
    Tushar Joshi4:06 PM
    So all are here now, let us proceed...
    Jiří Kovalský4:07 PM
    Can you see us Annabel?
    Michel Graciano4:07 PM
    Hi Annabel
    Annabel Melongo4:07 PM
    yes, now I can
    Jiří Kovalský4:07 PM
    Great, so hello team, thanks for joining us today! I think we can start this meeting. First of all I wanted to give you my regular update on what's happening with NetBeans 6.8. So, we are very close to releasing 6.8 Milestone 1 build on Monday. #151413 was successfully fixed yesterday and #169486 did not turn out to be another showstopper, all commits are forbidden today to propagate all integrations to the main repository. M1 clone will be hopefully created tomorrow and built on Sunday. So, cross your fingers! In addition to that I have one more warning before any speculations show up. 6.8 development builds will NOT bundle JavaFX support. JavaFX team does not want to share early access functionality so if anybody is interested in JavaFX integration in 6.8 s/he will have to wait for FCS. Just wanted you to know about this. Any questions regarding this topic?
    Annabel Melongo4:09 PM
    none on my part...
    Tushar Joshi4:09 PM
    no questions from my side
    Michel Graciano4:09 PM
    no, just one advise make this warning about JavaFX when milestones shows up
    Jiří Kovalský4:10 PM
    Hm, I will check this with Marketing team. Thanks Michel. Secondly, it occured to me that maybe an article about VOC program would be a good idea. Tushar, you seem to be an experienced blogger, don't you want to write it? You could mention some of VOC achievements like ERD in 6.8, several fixed bugs, you could describe how VOC works in reality, what you see as an area for improvement, what you are proud of, you could also interview your other two colleagues etc. What do you think about it Tushar? Or others?
    Tushar Joshi4:11 PM
    I will be delighted to write the article
    Michel Graciano4:11 PM
    looks great to me
    Annabel Melongo4:11 PM
    good idea...
    Tushar Joshi4:11 PM
    Shall I start writing on wiki or in private doc?
    Jiří Kovalský4:11 PM
    Oh, really? Excellent! Logical question is the timeline. When do you think you could do this? I am asking to follow-up with Tinuola Awopetu from Marketing team...
    Tushar Joshi4:12 PM
    I will need atleast two weeks, one for basic compilation and another for review
    Jiří Kovalský4:12 PM
    We would publish it on netbeans.org.
    Michel Graciano4:12 PM
    :-)
    Jiří Kovalský4:12 PM
    No problem.
    Tushar Joshi4:13 PM
    sure so I am noting my action item and will contact Tinuola
    Jiří Kovalský4:13 PM
    To answer your question, start with private document and send the draft to voc@netbeans.org for review, ok?
    Tushar Joshi4:13 PM
    ok @ jiri
    Jiří Kovalský4:14 PM
    Oh, you don't have to talk to Tinu. I would manage the rest.
    Tushar Joshi4:14 PM
    ok
    Jiří Kovalský4:14 PM
    Of course, you can but no sooner than all of us give you our Go, OK?
    Tushar Joshi4:15 PM
    Yes
    Jiří Kovalský4:15 PM
    Fine. Great, so now let's move to the VOC feedback part. Michael was first last week but his issue (#168883) was fixed immediately after I contacted Jarda Tulach (NetBeans Architect). However, he is not sure about the fix so please verify it. Another issue (#168282) was also confirmed as fixed so Michel should be very satisfied. :-) Anything else Michel for today?
    Michel Graciano4:16 PM
    nothing for today all isuues fixed *issues
    Jiří Kovalský4:16 PM
    An ideal state! :-D Annabel goes next! Annabel, the floor is yours.
    Michel Graciano4:17 PM
    the last one user confirmed that 6.7.1 fixed the performance problem too
    Jiří Kovalský4:17 PM
    Yes, I have noticed that.
    Annabel Melongo4:17 PM
    sure... My first issue is about the installer... http://netbeans.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=108684 : Installer should be able to upgrade NB to new version. This week I saw some quite installation issues : http://www.nabble.com/upgrade-from-6.7-to-6.7.1-to24715488.html http://www.nabble.com/Identical-Glassfish-Netbeans-installation-resulted-in-different-Glassfish-versions-to24738450.html
    Jiří Kovalský4:19 PM
    OK, let me comment on this IDE upgrade scenario request (#108684). I remember tt has been discussed several times in the past and decided not to do that. You know there are always some issues with more solutions and this is one of them. We simply believe that having different NetBeans versions separate with separate userdirs, feature sets is better. I am sure that if you ask on nbusers you will not receive uniform answer: "Yes, go for it! I don't need more than 1 NetBeans version." People are used to work differently and upgrading to new version would be pretty similar to downloading new installer binary in terms of network traffic - so no saving here. BTW, you know that new version always allows to import settings from the previous version and in addition to that it is possible to upgrade 6.7 to 6.7.1 via Update Center! So what's the deal? Finally, the issue has only 11 votes including duplicates. What is Tushar's and Michel's opinion about necessity to upgrade IDE versions via UC?
    Michel Graciano4:20 PM
    I prefer to have at least 2 versions installed mainly because I do several tests my IDEs became instable frequently and I need always an backup but for some scenarios it looks good
    Tushar Joshi4:21 PM
    I see no issue in downloading the new major version (competition is also doing the same for major versions). Two versions installed help in having separate sandboxes in case something fails
    Jiří Kovalský4:21 PM
    Yes, I also keep 2 version installed at the same time.
    Michel Graciano4:22 PM
    about major versions, I can't see problems, but for minor updates as 6.7.1 I agree that UC is important
    Annabel Melongo4:22 PM
    This issue with upgrade via UC is to assume everyone has internet. But unfortunately that isn't the case. You and I might have internet 24/7 but there are people there you can only have access to the internet once per week...
    Jiří Kovalský4:22 PM
    OK, thanks for your candid response guys.
    Michel Graciano4:22 PM
    I really have no strong opinion about this
    Jiří Kovalský4:22 PM
    Exactly @ Annabel! So, you know what to response next time. Let's go to the next issue.
    Annabel Melongo4:23 PM
    sure... This issue was actually created by our beloved Michel...
    Jiří Kovalský4:24 PM
    :-)
    Annabel Melongo4:24 PM
    Giving alias to db connection: http://netbeans.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=144112 It would be nice if db connections can be aliased so that the user can use different name with connection with same drivers. This question was raised in the beginning of the month and I tought it to be valid candidate: http://www.nabble.com/Database-Connection-Alias-to24389954.html#a24389954
    Jiří Kovalský4:24 PM
    OK, regarding this DB connection alias RFE (#144112) I have to admit that I have not seen this request before. It is assigned to David Van Couvering who was unfortunately laid off in January so I contacted our backup DB miniteam if it would be doable in the NetBeans 6.8 timeframe. The enhancement looks harmless in my opinion so maybe Michel is right and it could be NetFIXed. Would you be interested in this Annabel, Tushar or you Michel?
    Michel Graciano4:25 PM
    uhuu, my issue :-)
    Jiří Kovalský4:25 PM
    Means what?
    Tushar Joshi4:25 PM
    does that mean you are picking it up for NetFIX @ Michel
    Michel Graciano4:26 PM
    I can take a look at this, maybe Jiri Rechtacek some tips for us
    Jiří Kovalský4:26 PM
    He he ... :-)
    Michel Graciano4:26 PM
    I am the issue reporter
    Annabel Melongo4:26 PM
    Why are you doing that to Michel?
    Jiří Kovalský4:26 PM
    Michel, I didn't receive response from Jiri & Jiri but I will inform you right after I get their answer, okay?
    Annabel Melongo4:27 PM
    Being the issue reporter doesn't necessarily mean the issue resolver...
    Michel Graciano4:27 PM
    if JR could comment at issue where could we start
    Jiří Kovalský4:27 PM
    No doubt about it. OK, I will ask him to do that.
    Michel Graciano4:27 PM
    thanks @Annabel, it doens't look so hard to fix in first look
    Jiří Kovalský4:27 PM
    Great, so can we move on?
    Michel Graciano4:28 PM
    yes, go next
    Annabel Melongo4:28 PM
    The last issue is about debugger issues in NB 6.7... http://netbeans.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=168380 . Here are the entries in Nabble: http://www.nabble.com/Not-able-to-submit-breakpoint-%3A-No-executable-location-available-to24380588.html#a24380921 http://www.nabble.com/Debugger-problem%3A--No-executable-location-available-to17666477.html#a17666477
    Jiří Kovalský4:28 PM
    Hm, frankly I don't understand why the debugger breakpoint problem (#168380) needs to be discussed here. It has been fixed in 6.7.1 and 6.8 so if somebody can reproduce it in 6.7.1 or trunk builds just recommend such person to reopen the issue with steps to reproduce the bug. I can't comment on this more, sorry. Did you test it yourself Annabel?
    Annabel Melongo4:29 PM
    So you say if this even happen just ask the person to reproduce it? I don't know it has been fixed. I've sent you several emails on this and you never told me that...
    Michel Graciano4:30 PM
    I am reding this now, and was marked as fixed last week
    Jiří Kovalský4:31 PM
    Well, #168380 is duplicate of #115033 which Martin Entlicher fixed in early July and Jindrich Sedek (QE) verified it.
    Michel Graciano4:31 PM
    since updates was available this week, maybe user could test it and answer if it is ok or not
    Annabel Melongo4:31 PM
    Ok great. Sorry for that...
    Jiří Kovalský4:32 PM
    Just like that @ Michel.
    Michel Graciano4:32 PM
    the same for my issue... fixed this week
    Jiří Kovalský4:32 PM
    Yes. So, now let's Tushar speak.
    Tushar Joshi4:33 PM
    Incidently most of my issues also got fixed this week I have three points to mention
    Jiří Kovalský4:33 PM
    Three is quite enough Tushar. :-)
    Tushar Joshi4:34 PM
    Wiki editing (for confirmation before editing), The FAQ entry for uninstalling NB on Mac says there is an Uninstaller somewhere which apparently is nowhere now, shall I change this entry to reflect the fact? Remove uninstall text http://wiki.netbeans.org/FaqUninstallMac Reference: http://forums.netbeans.org/topic15253.html
    Jiří Kovalský4:35 PM
    OK, this one (uninstallation problems on Mac OS X) is most probably just a misunderstanding. I have talked to Dmitry Lipin from the Installer team about it. As you probably know, NetBeans is distributed via different ways - bundles at www.netbeans.org, Linux and Solaris native packages, NetBeans with JDK bundles, Java EE Tools Bundle (NetBeans + Java EE SDK) and others. That FAQ page is about how to uninstall NetBeans which was installed as the part of the Java EE Tools Bundle which is available at http://java.sun.com/javaee/downloads The thing is that the installation/uninstallation processes could be different for all those distributions. In particular, NetBeans, as the part of Java EE Tools Bundle, uninstallation is different from the NetBeans standalone, from netbeans.org, uninstallation. So his answer (and Douglas' question) was likely about how to uninstall NetBeans which was distributed via netbeans.org site. That's why the FAQ Wiki page didn't help but it does not mean it should be removed. Maybe it's worth emphasizing (e.g. in the FAQ name/header) that it is valid only for the Java EE Tools Bundle and add section about how to uninstall NetBeans standalone (distributed at netbeans.org). Would you agree? This is again something that some of you could help with. Any taker?
    Tushar Joshi4:36 PM
    I will take this up I will reflect the explanation you just did on the page, moving to next one now..
    Jiří Kovalský4:36 PM
    Cool, but wait this is already your second action item from today's meeting! Sure, go on...
    Tushar Joshi4:36 PM
    Yes but I am already ready for that Error badges issue - some discussion on the mailing list for error badges this week. Do we have any target version for them? Reference: http://www.netbeans.org/servlets/ReadMsg?list=nbusers&msgNo=139760 Issue: http://netbeans.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=121950 (Unbrella Issue) reference: http://www.nabble.com/NB-editors-keeps-error-while-build-run-is-OK-td24614374.html#a24621567
    Jiří Kovalský4:38 PM
    Good question. Famous issue #121950 about incorrect error badges! Because it's an umbrella issue it's not a piece of cake to fix it like other P2 bugs. As you can see the issue covers 61 (!) bugs and already 33 of them have been fixed. According to Jiri Prox (Editor Technologies Quality Engineering lead) error badging together with performance are two areas which are being improved the most right now and in which we are really heavily investing our manpower. So, please be patient - it takes time. Even Peter B. West (author of the post @ nbusers) noticed small improvement in 6.7.
    Tushar Joshi4:39 PM
    ok yes noted, I believe this means 6.8 will see more issues in the list fixed I am moving to the last point for today...
    Jiří Kovalský4:39 PM
    So, yes I think 6.8 is the short answer to your question.
    Tushar Joshi4:40 PM
    There are currently some differences between the style used by the NetBeans Java formatter and the coding conventions documented in: Reference: http://forums.netbeans.org/topic15115.html Issue: http://netbeans.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=124169 - Why still Open? http://groups.google.com/group/NetBeans/browse_thread/thread/275b882c8a225f5d
    Michel Graciano4:40 PM
    I have one comment about it
    Jiří Kovalský4:41 PM
    OK, so let me comment on the default reformatting issues (#124169 + #151154 too). David Strupl (Editor Technologies Engineering manager) confirmed either Dusan Balek or Rastislav Komara from his team will investigate this. The worst thing is to compile a complete set of differences. The implemenation itself should be relatively easy. Any volunteer to compare NetBeans formatting with Sun's standard? Or maybe Mike Duigou AKA "bondolo" could help with this if you ask him. But this would have to be done soon to save some time for Dusan.
    Michel Graciano4:41 PM
    I saw 2 issues about it in the last two weeks, and one was already fixed, and this one developer ask about which diferences are user talking about
    Jiří Kovalský4:41 PM
    That's correct point Michel.
    Tushar Joshi4:42 PM
    so can we say that the other issue is also fixed or wait for the reported to write more
    Jiří Kovalský4:43 PM
    Yes, I think it was fixed.
    Michel Graciano4:44 PM
    the issue you asked for (#121950) is still open but as I can understand we need more info about which differences are user talking about
    Jiří Kovalský4:44 PM
    But again it would be good to ask Scott Palmer (bug reporter) to confirm it in #200907310201 build. I am talking about the latter (#151154).
    Michel Graciano4:45 PM
    in mean time, I think we should always ask users to verify issues when fixed
    Tushar Joshi4:45 PM
    Ok @ #151154, this answers all my points, let me mention i have started the page NBVOCIssues on wiki and will be updating it with complete list in coming days
    Michel Graciano4:46 PM
    it is the better way to address regressions as well issue history
    Jiří Kovalský4:46 PM
    Great idea @ Tushar!
    Annabel Melongo4:46 PM
    @Tushar why don't you use our upcoming wiki for that?
    Tushar Joshi4:46 PM
    I can see many issues we discussed are still open for 6.7waiver Jiri, do you mean the Kenai wiki?
    Michel Graciano4:46 PM
    so people, I need to go solve some issue here now
    Jiří Kovalský4:46 PM
    Yes, you are right @ Michel. Prompt verification helps prevent regressions and later user disappointment.
    Michel Graciano4:47 PM
    sorry for that
    Jiří Kovalský4:47 PM
    You have to go Michel?
    Michel Graciano4:47 PM
    yes some problem shows up here now I need to pay attention
    Jiří Kovalský4:48 PM
    OK, thanks for your time today. And by the way I have already answered to Constantin Drabo (NetFIX applicant).
    Michel Graciano4:48 PM
    I will be online, so I can read the meeting log @Jiri, I saw the reply see you people bye
    Jiří Kovalský4:48 PM
    Sure, enjoy your weekend! Bye.
    Tushar Joshi4:48 PM
    Ok. I am done with my points, we can proceed
    Annabel Melongo4:49 PM
    I have a question though...
    Jiří Kovalský4:49 PM
    Tushar, yes please use the Kenai Wiki. Thanks. Go on Annabel...
    Annabel Melongo4:50 PM
    Michel says we can ask the issue requester to test issue once implemented, I don't really think that's a good idea...
    Jiří Kovalský4:51 PM
    Because of what? You think it's responsibility of the developer, right?
    Annabel Melongo4:52 PM
    I will just be to much of an overload for us. For the issues which have been implemented should be tracked, then the reporters should be emailed and then we would need to check their answers. I think it would be best just to let them know and leave it up to the qa team...
    Jiří Kovalský4:53 PM
    Oh, I believe we only meant issues discussed here. Not everything ...
    Annabel Melongo4:53 PM
    ok, I see... but even that is an overload, don't you think?
    Jiří Kovalský4:54 PM
    But of course, it's just a suggestion which could clearly show that VOC Captains really care...
    Annabel Melongo4:54 PM
    I have no problem contacting them that issues have been solved... but waiting for their feedback and such is just unrealistic...
    Jiří Kovalský4:54 PM
    This is a voluntary initiative so nobody can be forced by anybody.
    Annabel Melongo4:55 PM
    you know people don't follow up on things like that...
    Jiří Kovalský4:56 PM
    It's just a ping, a request for action. If they verify it, cool. If they reopen it, cool as well because it's in our hands again.
    Annabel Melongo4:56 PM
    ok, thanks for the explanation...
    Jiří Kovalský4:56 PM
    Would you agree Tushar?
    Tushar Joshi4:56 PM
    Yes, we can just ask them to verify, rest leave it on them and that too through the mailing list
    Jiří Kovalský4:57 PM
    +1 So, any closing thoughts for today? Or questions?
    Annabel Melongo4:57 PM
    None on my part. I don't have any action items.
    Tushar Joshi4:57 PM
    no more questions
    Annabel Melongo4:57 PM
    @Tushar if you happen to need help for yours, let me know...
    Tushar Joshi4:58 PM
    Thanks Annabel, will do that if needed
    Jiří Kovalský4:58 PM
    Great to see community cooperation live!
    Annabel Melongo4:58 PM
    @Jiri, really funny... I think you should be a comedian...
    Jiří Kovalský4:58 PM
    So, have a nice time and see you in 3 weeks: August 21, 2009.
    Tushar Joshi4:59 PM
    See you all, have a nice weekend
    Annabel Melongo4:59 PM
    Ok, nice week-end you all...
    Jiří Kovalský4:59 PM
    I just like when people smile @ Annabel. Bye, bye VOC Captains!


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