Transcript of Voice of Community chat

Topic: VOC meeting #9
Date: May 15th, 2009
Time: 4:00 PM Central European Time
Duration: 1 hour
Chat client: Skype
Participants:
  • Tushar Joshi (India)
  • Melongo Annabel (USA)
  • Jiri Kovalsky (Czech Republic)
  • Michel Graciano (Brazil)

  • Agenda:
    1. Update: NetBeans 6.7 status [Jiri, 5 minutes]
    2. Review: AIs from last meeting [All, 10 minutes]
    3. Discussion: Outstanding potential VOC issues [Annabel, Tushar, Michel - 40 minutes]
    4. Q&A [all, 5 minutes]

    Minutes:

  • Jiri informed the team about latest 6.7 status.
  • In order to fix #161367 we need projects reproducing this issue. Please help!
  • Team revisited all pending action items from previous VOC chat
  • Tushar: people are complaining about classpath scanning problems, leaving Schliemann in favour of new language infrastructure.
  • Annabel: community wants Weblogic support in 6.5.1 but there is no owner for this functionality.
  • Action items:

  • Annabel wants to cooperate with users facing #161367 to find some helpful information.
  • Michel to decide destination for updated TODO plugin.
  • VOC captains to help users find reproducible scenarios for their problems.
  • Jiri to ask Milan Kubec about #46886.
  • Jiri to ask web development team about #48465.
  • Jiri to ask Petr Hejl about #123169 and #152937.
  • 16:00:18* Jiří Kovalský invited annabel.melongo
    16:00:21* Jiří Kovalský invited tusharvjoshi
    16:00:59Jiri Kovalsky: Hi people!
    16:01:19Michel Graciano: Hi
    16:01:31Tushar Joshi: Hi
    16:01:50Annabel Melongo: hi
    16:02:02Jiri Kovalsky: How are you? :-)
    16:02:08Annabel Melongo: fine
    16:02:34Michel Graciano: Happy for one more weekend
    16:02:36… :)
    16:02:39Tushar Joshi: good
    16:02:42Jiri Kovalsky: Great, thanks for joining us today. Let's not waste time and kick-off this meeting.
    16:02:52… In the first place I wanted to give you update on current status of 6.7 release.
    16:03:04… So, in short NetBeans 6.7 codebase has only 1 week to Code Freeze which is planned for May 22nd.
    16:03:11… Our goal is to have RC1 out in early June.
    16:03:21… As for the quality, number of P3 bugs is successfully decreasing with exception of Editor which is over boundary because Editor team is focused on fixing P2s.
    16:03:37… Unfortunately, there is no major improvement in P2 bugs in general. Luckily, income of high priority NetCAT bugs dropped significantly during last week. :-)
    16:03:53Michel Graciano: :)
    16:04:33Jiri Kovalsky: For your information, there is an effort to turn on last new feature: Kenai chat built-in support. It will be sanity checked hopefully over weekend and I am going to ask NetCAT team for a fast track test as soon as it's live.
    16:04:43… Based on the users feedback the decision will be made on Wednesday whether it will stay in 6.7 FCS or not.
    16:04:49… That's all I have regarding the status. Any questions?
    16:05:17Annabel Melongo: what about the scanning issue?
    16:05:37Jiri Kovalsky: Yes, I also promised more information regarding #161367 so here it is. I discussed this with Vitezslav Stejskal and he told me that he desperately needs a project or more that reliably reproduce that never ending classpath scanning.
    16:05:44… Having such a project would directly lead to fixing that bug. Also message.log might help in case RepositoryUpdater logging is switched on.
    16:05:50… Thread dumps are not useful here since they don't explain what triggered the indexing. BTW, issue #164745 does not block #161367 but "nleck" user ignores Jan Lahoda's explanation why.
    16:05:58… So, if you want to help VOC become famous and respected among community, find a project reproducing this. :-)
    16:06:23… Any brave taker here? ;-)
    16:08:00Michel Graciano: all projects we faced it are just working now
    16:08:12… probably fixed for some another scanning issue
    16:08:14Jiri Kovalsky: I know Michel.
    16:08:53Annabel Melongo: Let me contact people complaining about this and see what we can reproduce. Ok?
    16:08:55Jiri Kovalsky: I informed our product management team about your positive experience.
    16:09:38… OK, but what we need is the project that reproduces that.
    16:10:09Annabel Melongo: I'll see what I can do. I will ask...
    16:10:46Jiri Kovalsky: Hopefully you will be able to motivate them for tight cooperation. :-) Any other questions or can we move on?
    16:11:03Tushar Joshi: One issue logged by me just became WONTFIX today, it was also related to scanning and freezing
    16:11:58Jiri Kovalsky: Is that the #164441?
    16:12:31Tushar Joshi: yes
    16:12:49Jiri Kovalsky: Yes, I am reading the justification right now...
    16:13:53Tushar Joshi: This means this is a loop hole in NB which will be left open, then we will have to document this case as not to be practiced, and needs IDE restart
    16:15:07Jiri Kovalsky: Hm, that's sad but I also consider this as not frequent usecase. Do you think this happens often Tushar?
    16:15:33Tushar Joshi: no i dont think this is frequently happening issue, I also encountered it accidentally
    16:15:54Jiri Kovalsky: OK.
    16:16:02Tushar Joshi: but this is a case which gets reproduced all the time by following that path
    16:16:37… so while adding libraries we can atleast do a validation check of whether a root is getting added
    16:16:47… but let us keep this discussion on that issue thread
    16:16:49… and proceed
    16:17:03Jiri Kovalsky: Exactly. Add your comments there. Thanks.
    16:17:22… OK, now let's discuss the action items from our last meeting.
    16:17:29… Annabel didn't have any assignment so I will start. I was expected to convince somebody to take a look at #157692 and voila it has been fixed by Jesse Glick! :-)
    16:17:39… Secondly, I had to investigate issue #134990 but since it was waived I at least added comment as promised here. :-\
    16:17:47… Now Michel, can you inform us on your progress with #96680 and #63953? I have seen that you patched the 2nd RFE, have you pushed the changes to repository already?
    16:18:30Michel Graciano: yes, the TODO plugin is fully functional
    16:18:41… even working at 6.5 and 6.7
    16:18:57… and I fixed an issue against this module too
    16:19:09Jiri Kovalsky: Hm, pretty good. So, what next steps do you plan?
    16:19:11Michel Graciano: and I will try to implement it for 6.8 asap
    16:19:27Jiri Kovalsky: Want to publish it on the Beta UC?
    16:19:41… Or prefer Plugin Portal?
    16:20:25Michel Graciano: I really have no preference, but I prefer the easier to update :D
    16:20:38… I think Beta UC is easier, right?
    16:20:49Jiri Kovalsky: I see. How often do you want to provide new binaries?
    16:21:01… Well, it depends.
    16:21:07Michel Graciano: always any problem or improviment should be done
    16:21:21… AFAIK it is already finalized
    16:21:33… now, just fixes will be done
    16:21:41Jiri Kovalsky: See http://wiki.netbeans.org/FaqUpdateCenterOrPluginPortal
    16:22:06Michel Graciano: and all ideas will be implemented in an correct way for default distro
    16:22:50Jiri Kovalsky: Our community plugin verifiers are not as fast as we are but on the other hand we accept new binary twice a month at maximum.
    16:23:25… So it's up to you. What about the former issue #96680?
    16:23:46Michel Graciano: I have no time to think and right an definitive proposal yet
    16:23:58… I already have the ideas, but no much time to this yet
    16:24:01… :(
    16:24:24Jiri Kovalsky: OK, fair enough.
    16:24:40… Thanks Michel. Now Tushar. What about your good will to implement #13857? You are busy with netfixing #155143 and #136219, aren't you?
    16:25:30Tushar Joshi: About the copy rectangular areas issue, 13857 I have confirmed that the plugin Sandeep has created works with NB 6.5.1 and later also
    16:26:14… There is one known issue now which I have logged in the issue thread apart from that the plugin works and solves the problem, users are asking for a visual clue that is yet not available in the available plugin
    16:27:09… so after I am donw with the netfix items assigned to me I will have a look at the plugin developed by Sandeep, and will keep the discussion about how to fix the new visual clue feature going on
    16:27:56… My progress in the netfix items is very slow as I am very new to this source and also the process
    16:28:47Annabel Melongo: You bet.... it's taking me 2 weeks now only to figure out the ant!!!
    16:29:18Jiri Kovalsky: Re: #13857 I am glad that Miloslav Metelka seems to be supporting you.
    16:29:31Tushar Joshi: yes he has added his comment just some minutes ago
    16:30:55Jiri Kovalsky: I can certainly understand that Annabel. Also trying to find the project(s) reproducing #161367 will delay you as well.
    16:31:02… But it is really worth it.
    16:31:13… Great, we are done. So, now let's go quickly through community feedback. Is there any outstanding blog post, campaign on Twitter etc.?
    16:31:36Tushar Joshi: Most of the times it is about the scanning what I have seen
    16:31:59… there is a long thread about the Schielman project but people are now agreeing on shifting to the new mechanism
    16:32:07Jiri Kovalsky: Yes, it's very visible topic on NetCAT alias too.
    16:32:25… I meant the scanning. ;-)
    16:33:35… OK, so can we proceed to Annabel's issues?
    16:33:45Michel Graciano: sure :)
    16:33:48Tushar Joshi: sure
    16:33:53Annabel Melongo: ok
    16:34:41… This first issue has no entry yet in IZ but it has to do with weblogic: adding the server and creating support for NB 6.5+
    16:35:21… This is supposed to all happen in NB6.7M4? but right now, people are really getting crazy to have it in NB6.5+
    16:36:03Jiri Kovalsky: What do you mean? Anybody from community is working on weblogic plugin improvements?
    16:36:59… As I have already said before, this plugin [1] is not being even maintained. [1] http://hg.netbeans.org/web-main/file/tip/j2ee.weblogic9
    16:37:15Annabel Melongo: I don't know; someone from Sun says it would be available... let me check the person's name
    16:37:38Jiri Kovalsky: Michal Mocnak did some fine tuning last time but he is not an owner.
    16:38:54Annabel Melongo: Yes it was Michal Mocnak. I forwarded you the email...
    16:38:55Jiri Kovalsky: And regarding the missing value in datasource pulldown, the support is not implemented which explains why the guy couldn't find it.
    16:39:01… OK, thanks.
    16:41:07… So, my pretty accurate answer is that nothing will change regarding Weblogic integration anytime soon.
    16:41:38Annabel Melongo: Just keep us in the loop then as soon as you get something, ok?
    16:42:10Jiri Kovalsky: OK. And frankly I don't understand why we should invest time to backporting something for 6.5.1 instead of motivating people to switch to 6.7. :-)
    16:42:30… Let's go to the next issue, ok?
    16:43:02Annabel Melongo: NB 6.7 isn't stable yet. People like stability...
    16:43:21… 1. Missing "deploy on change" tickbox funtionality. 2. Netbeans freezes after importing plugins: http://www.nabble.com/net-beans-6.7-beta-frezees-after-import-td23524916.html#a23524916 # Navigation operations (Go To Type/Source/Declaration/etc) are too slow * These all must be nearly instantaneous -- including opening the source file in the editor. # Project scanning disables too much functionality * One should be able to perform the vast majority of operations even while project scanning is being performed -- based on previous scan data where necessary (i.e. for items currently being scanned or yet to be scanned). * Allowing navigation (Go To Type/Source/Declaration,...) during scanning is absolutely critical. * Refactoring should give a warning but still be allowed during scanning. # Project scanning should be faster # No control over re-indexing/scanning of directories (for those who need to have a directory containing loose class files for various reasons)
    16:43:27Jiri Kovalsky: Yes, but FCS is planned soon...
    16:44:08Annabel Melongo: Sorry I typed when I shouldn't have. Any way, you have all the NB6.7 complaints and suggestions...
    16:44:31Jiri Kovalsky: Hm, that's very interesting but unfortunately very vague at the same time.
    16:45:10Annabel Melongo: What is vague in your opinion?
    16:45:17Jiri Kovalsky: For example all bugs like "navigation is too slow" are very good candidates for being closed.
    16:45:37… We need more information on usecase, setup, exact measurements, environment.
    16:47:15… I understand these statements express feelings but engineers are not wizards equipped with some magic that will diagnose these complaints and understand what is "slow" etc.
    16:47:32Annabel Melongo: ok, I'll try to get that information from those users
    16:47:34Michel Graciano: #165245
    16:47:49Jiri Kovalsky: Engineers must have discrete goals. Makes sense?
    16:47:50Michel Graciano: this should be related with some problems listed by Melongo
    16:48:28#165170
    16:48:46… related too (the first one is so close with what Melongo said)
    16:49:15… about make some operations available even during scanning]
    16:49:30Jiri Kovalsky: OK, if you approach them, please rather contact them privately and offer own help Annabel. Agree?
    16:50:23Annabel Melongo: Offer own help? How? They need some funtionalities on NB6.7 and how do I offer this?
    16:50:59… I can only contact them and ask to reproduce "technically" what they talk about...
    16:51:04Tushar Joshi: In my opinion making simulations and project environments reproducing the issues is necessary for their resolution and we should look for such data and try that, I am trying to make a project which will show the slow nature of the IDE , not successful yet but will keep trying
    16:51:52Jiri Kovalsky: Exactly Tushar! What I mean is to replicate their problems based on their investigations etc.
    16:52:28… The more people tries the higher probability is to find the reproducible bug & cause.
    16:53:28… BTW, thanks for reporting that issue #165170. Looks like Vitezslav knows what is the cause.
    16:54:05Annabel Melongo: next issue?
    16:54:08Jiri Kovalsky: Yes.
    16:55:35Annabel Melongo: The scanning issue might seem to be linked with this one, it's a proven truth yet, but it seems a higher probability:-Support for FreeForm project: #46886
    16:56:08… ** it's not a proven truth yet**
    16:56:44Jiri Kovalsky: I got it. :-) Are you sure that this is so serious? It has not been touched since 2006.
    16:57:23… I understand that it collected 12 votes over these 5 years but are people requesting this recently?
    16:58:02Annabel Melongo: yes it seems people with free-form projects are highly affected with scanning issues... that's why I decided to go for it; maybe solving that might solve the scanning issue...
    16:58:40Jiri Kovalsky: I doubt but I can have a talk with Milan Kubec about it. What's next?
    16:59:06Annabel Melongo: Refactoring should propagate through jsp's files: #48465
    17:00:10Jiri Kovalsky: Yes, this seems to be very popular and I remember this from NetCAT 5.0 already.
    17:01:02Annabel Melongo: next issue?
    17:01:18Jiri Kovalsky: Yes, I will take this again as an AI.
    17:02:28… But let me emphasize that we are stabilizing 6.7 now and plans for 6.8 must reflect the absolute priority #1 to monetize NB existence.
    17:03:21Annabel Melongo: The next is about Groovy; We don't have a debugging support and the test unit functionalities are missing as well. Groovy is a big novelty in the market now and it would be an advantage for NB to support it on all of its aspects:
    17:03:43… -Need for groovy debugging support: #123169 -Groovy Unit testing: #152937
    17:04:46Jiri Kovalsky: OK, thanks Annabel. I will discuss both issues with Petr Hejl if there is a chance to incorporate them into 6.8's plan of features.
    17:05:24… We are out of time so I quickly give the floor to Michel.
    17:05:27… Michel?
    17:05:42Michel Graciano: no issues for today
    17:06:07Jiri Kovalsky: Oh, great then. :-) Tushar?
    17:06:34Tushar Joshi: No Issues, as all of them are already discussed and the scanning was the only thing in mind
    17:07:06Jiri Kovalsky: Yes, I believe this really.
    17:07:17… So, any closing questions? ;-)
    17:07:23Annabel Melongo: When do you think you'll have the transcript ready?
    17:08:22… The reason I'm asking is for the scanning issue? To ask people for the code, I would need to send them to the transcript which will give me the "credentials" to ask such a thing...
    17:08:24Jiri Kovalsky: That's a tough question actually. If I don't do it over weekend, I will have time for it on Wednesday at the earliest.
    17:08:45… I see the point.
    17:08:51… I will do my best.
    17:09:06… Anything else today?
    17:09:19Michel Graciano: just take a rest this weekend :D
    17:09:41Annabel Melongo: ok, just do it as quickly as you can and let's know. I have nothing else. Thanks and have a nice week-end
    17:09:46Jiri Kovalsky: Hehe, you too folks! :-D
    17:10:03Michel Graciano: @melongo: you could answer user saing that soon the transcript will be available
    17:10:05Jiri Kovalsky: Thanks for your time and feedback!
    17:10:06Michel Graciano: ;)
    17:10:11Tushar Joshi: Have a nice weekend all :)
    17:10:13Michel Graciano: see you soon people
    17:10:23Jiri Kovalsky: OK, bye bye.
    17:10:41Tushar Joshi: Bye!
    17:10:44Annabel Melongo: bye
    17:10:44Michel Graciano: bye
    17:10:51* Michel Graciano left the chat.


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