Transcript of Voice of Community chat

Topic: VOC meeting #6
Date: March 27th, 2009
Time: 3:00 PM Central European Time
Duration: 1 hour
Conversation: netbeans
Chat Client: NetBeans Developer Collaboration module
Participants:
  • Michel Graciano (Brazil)
  • Melongo Annabel (USA)
  • Jiri Kovalsky (Czech Republic)

  • Agenda:
    1. Update: NetBeans 6.7 M3, JavaFX 1.1.1 [Jiri, 5 minutes]
    2. Feature highlight: Profile Me Now!, Unified language framework [Jiri, 5 minutes]
    3. Discussion: Outstanding potential VOC issues [Melongo, Tushar, Michel, 40 minutes]
    4. Q&A [all, 10 minutes]

    Minutes:

  • Jiri updated VOC Captains on M3 status and latest JavaFX 1.1.1 release.
  • Jiri highlighted two features: Profile Me Now! and new unified language framework.
  • Melongo was lobbing for #47233, however it will most probably not improve anytime soon.
  • Melongo also pointed out that updating 6.5 to 6.5.1 via UC makes JavaFX unusable, the only workaround is to uninstall 6.5 and install 6.5.1 together with JavaFX
  • According to Melongo every tutorial needs a way how community can send feedback on the tutorial.
  • Next meeting is cheduled for April 10th, 2009 at 4:00 p.m. CET
  • Action items:

  • Melongo to send Jiri problematic JavaFX scenario, Jiri then escalates this to JavaFX team.
  • Jiri to discuss the requirement for better feedback on tutorials processing with NetBeans Writers and inform VOC Captains.
  • 4:01:51amelongo joined the conversation
    4:01:53hmichel joined the conversation
    4:01:53amelongo Are you ready?
    4:01:57hmichel I am ready
    4:02:03Jiri Kovalsky Me too.
    4:02:15Jiri Kovalsky So, hello Captains, thanks for joining our VOC meeting today!
    4:02:24Jiri Kovalsky Let's get started. First of all I would like to give you an update on the Milestone 3 status.
    4:02:36Jiri Kovalsky As you might know we planned to release it on Wednesday but we didn't meet required quality criteria on Monday and more bug fixing was needed.
    4:02:53Jiri Kovalsky That's why we decided to postpone the M3 release date by a week. So, if cloning succeeds and 2 days certification passes M3 should go live on Wednesday.
    4:03:06Jiri Kovalsky I would be grateful for your cooperation with calming down our community in case some complaints show up. Thanks!
    4:03:29hmichel sure
    4:03:33Jiri Kovalsky The good news is that we released JavaFX 1.1.1 update on time which hopefully explains my yesterday's confusion about Melongo's complain on not working JavaFX support.
    4:03:41Jiri Kovalsky But we will get to that later.
    4:03:49Jiri Kovalsky Any questions so far?
    4:03:56amelongo no
    4:04:17hmichel no questions
    4:04:19Jiri Kovalsky OK, then let's move on.
    4:04:29Jiri Kovalsky Secondly, I wanted to highlight two important features that should give you some context and "munition" when answering community requests.
    4:04:39Jiri Kovalsky So, if you haven't heard about "Profile Me Now!" feature before, it's a handy self diagnostic tool for people facing some performance issues.
    4:04:52Jiri Kovalsky This feature creates so called profiling snapshots that helps us identify potential source of the problems.
    4:05:08Jiri Kovalsky In order to use this tool one has to have Java Profiler and Timers API plugins installed and Memory toolbar displayed.
    4:05:23Jiri Kovalsky Some more information is available here: http://wiki.netbeans.org/NewAndNoteworthyMilestone2NB67#section-NewAndNoteworthyMilestone2NB67-ProfileMeNow
    4:05:32hmichel here is better
    4:05:43hmichel http://wiki.netbeans.org/FaqProfileMeNow
    4:05:58hmichel Tomas Pavek created it just today
    4:06:11Jiri Kovalsky Oh, I didn't notice that. Thanks Michel!
    4:06:29Jiri Kovalsky It's great to learn from community! :-)
    4:06:35hmichel :-D
    4:06:38Jiri Kovalsky "Profile Me Now!" was introduced into M2. Please use this information as appropriate in your replies to NetBeans users who consider some operations sluggish.
    4:06:50Jiri Kovalsky By the way, how many of you have already known about this and possibly used it?
    4:07:09amelongo I've none about it but I use clover
    4:07:27Jiri Kovalsky none?
    4:07:31hmichel I know about changes, but used just as test
    4:07:40amelongo sorry, "known"
    4:08:03hmichel I am using 6.5 yet, probably I will start use 6.7 just when M3 arrive
    4:08:11Jiri Kovalsky Oh, excellent! Glad to hear it's nothing new for you.
    4:08:42Jiri Kovalsky I think it's a good idea to keep your 6.5 FCS ready as backup though.
    4:08:56Jiri Kovalsky Great. Finally, I wanted to share with you the changes which happened in one of the core parts of the NetBeans IDE.
    4:09:15Jiri Kovalsky Two weeks ago we finished a substantial rewrite of generic language infrastructure. Java was based on Retouche and scripting languages used GSF.
    4:09:26Jiri Kovalsky What we basically did was we extracted common Parsing API and rewrote the layer above. Java uses simplified Retouche and CSL was created for Common Scripting Languages.
    4:09:49Jiri Kovalsky The benefits are performance (especially in multi-language projects with different parsers), better maintainability, improved quality and new features.
    4:10:15Jiri Kovalsky The reason I am bringing this up is that since it's a low level change in a heavily used area this might negatively impact stability of all Editors.
    4:10:34hmichel that was the David Strupl work, right?
    4:10:35Jiri Kovalsky So, please keep your eyes open and encourage everyone who sees some abnormal behavior to immediately report it to IssueZilla. Thank you!
    4:11:32Jiri Kovalsky Well, he is "only" a manager of the Core Editor team. In reality it was a joint effort of David's and Petr Jiricka's teams.
    4:11:46Jiri Kovalsky And once again. Were you familiar with this refactoring effort?
    4:11:50hmichel I understand, thanks
    4:12:12amelongo I'm not familiar with the refactoring effort
    4:13:05hmichel I just saw several issues owned by him
    4:13:19hmichel mainly about GSF
    4:13:20Jiri Kovalsky I think we can already see some problems reported on NetCAT alias caused by this...
    4:14:15Jiri Kovalsky OK, any other questions regarding this?
    4:14:21hmichel no, thanks
    4:14:27amelongo none
    4:14:31Jiri Kovalsky Fine, so now the floor is yours. Melongo, why don't you go first and describe your collected feedback?
    4:14:44amelongo ok
    4:15:03amelongo My first issue is about dependent issues
    4:15:39amelongo those issues are independently updated and each has separate votes
    4:16:17amelongo it would be nice though to automatically update all once the status of one of the dependent issue is changed
    4:17:24amelongo also, it would be nice to have a total votes of all those issues reflected in all. For example if we have 3 issues that are dependent and each has 2 votes. It would be nice to have a total vote of 6 on ALL issues
    4:18:38amelongo right now it's really confusing that a dependent issue is updated and the other issues aren't. It turns the community crazy... that's for the first issue
    4:18:52amelongo questions?
    4:19:53Jiri Kovalsky Well, this is already submitted right?
    4:20:34amelongo no it is not submitted. People complaint about it last week and I made a note.
    4:21:03amelongo however if you want me to file an issue for that, I will
    4:21:18hmichel so, just think that issue dependence is a two way relantionship
    4:21:51hmichel computes it for blocked issue, should be correct, but for blockers, I don't think so
    4:22:35amelongo what do you mean with blocked and blockers?
    4:22:47Jiri Kovalsky I think we are talking about this [1], am I right? [1] http://netbeans.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=47233
    4:23:43Jiri Kovalsky Or http://netbeans.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=26513 for collecting dependencies.
    4:25:21amelongo yes. that's the issue it also has a dependent #26513; is this already implemented?
    4:25:46Jiri Kovalsky Well, I will be honest with you.
    4:26:11Jiri Kovalsky Yes, it is already implemented. However...
    4:27:10Jiri Kovalsky ... while you hit the nail on its head Melongo it's almost certain that NetBeans community will not benefit from it.
    4:28:26Jiri Kovalsky The issue was implemented in CEE 5.2 p1 version of IssueZilla but NetBeans has some older version.
    4:29:08Jiri Kovalsky Upgrading to the CEE 5.2 p1 would cost money and secondly do you know what project Kenai is?
    4:29:13Jiri Kovalsky ;-)
    4:29:41amelongo it's not really a practical benefit but it helps people not to duplicate issues, it also helps the community and us to manage issuezilla. It makes tracking NEEDED issues better; so in the long run, it's really a benefit even though one can't see it at first glance.
    4:30:34amelongo yes, Kenai is an integration with the bug tracking application...
    4:30:57hmichel Kenai is a replacement for java.net in other words
    4:31:02hmichel lower costs probably
    4:31:14Jiri Kovalsky And do you know who is behind Kenai?
    4:31:26hmichel Sun I think
    4:31:29amelongo issuezilla?
    4:31:31amelongo :-)
    4:31:44Jiri Kovalsky Yes, you get 2 points Michel!
    4:31:49hmichel with all opensource projects
    4:31:58hmichel where we donqt need Collab anymore
    4:32:07hmichel *don't
    4:32:15Jiri Kovalsky java.net is also built on top of CollabNet. As well as netbeans.org.
    4:32:24hmichel reducing costs, since java.net and nb.org is based on Collab
    4:32:37hmichel yes, you are just confirming my expectations
    4:33:41Jiri Kovalsky Exactly. So we only must be patient...
    4:34:13Jiri Kovalsky Melongo, I can't comment on this more.
    4:34:27Jiri Kovalsky Let's go to the next item, if you agree.
    4:34:34amelongo ok
    4:34:41hmichel no problem
    4:34:48hmichel and thanks for clarification
    4:35:38amelongo the next item is javafx. as I said, there have been a lot of buzz about it. the link I've sent you yesterday depict all the needs in this topic.
    4:36:25amelongo but since you said some of them have been taken care of, so I'll see what is in the next release
    4:36:36amelongo questions?
    4:37:33Jiri Kovalsky OK, I see 1 P1 umbrella issue which is not a true showstopper. Then 6 P2s a rest is P3/P4.
    4:38:14amelongo the problem however is that, it doesn't work in the current NB version, has this been fixed?
    4:39:29Jiri Kovalsky Have you tried it? I mean the Wednesday's 1.1.1 release. In the URL you sent yesterday there are also problems with Update Center like #153753.
    4:40:57amelongo I'm talking about the update center. If someone update and want to use javafx, it doesn't work anymore. One had to uninstall and re-install a previous version for it to work again. That has been turning the community crazy...
    4:41:35Jiri Kovalsky Or not having a JavaFX specific welcome page (#150677 - P2) does not sound so serious to me...
    4:42:04Jiri Kovalsky Oh, OK let's clarify this scenario then!
    4:42:18amelongo no, not that one. It's about having to uninstall and reinstall the previous version
    4:43:45Jiri Kovalsky So, you mean that it's not possible to install JavaFX to existing 6.5 FCS installation? And the only way to get it work is to uninstall the IDE and install new 6.5.1 with bundled JavaFX?
    4:43:57amelongo yeap
    4:44:23Jiri Kovalsky What is the actuall problem? Some exceptions or not working wizards etc.?
    4:44:34Jiri Kovalsky Michel, have you tried this?
    4:44:57hmichel no, no javafx yet
    4:45:19hmichel neither try to install
    4:45:26Jiri Kovalsky Melongo, what's the source of this? nbusers?
    4:46:21Jiri Kovalsky I would be interested in hearing the step by step workflow that does not work. I could then forward it to my JavaFX colleague.
    4:46:46amelongo the problem is someone will update through the UC and when s/he tries to use javafx, it doesn't work anymore. So one has to completely uninstall the NB version and install the lastest stable version they use to run javafx.
    4:48:02amelongo Marian Milisovic said this would be fixed in the next release and I don't know how far you're with it... it will also email you the discuss on the topic in nabble.com. right now, I just can't get to it
    4:48:45amelongo @error Miran Mirilovic
    4:48:47Jiri Kovalsky OK, so send it to me after the chat and I will follow-up with Marian Mirilovic and Adam Sotona (the JavaFX guy).
    4:49:00amelongo ok
    4:50:02amelongo the next issue is either to force each NB tutorial to have a feedback, some have, some don't or create a mailing list dedicated to tutorials questions
    4:50:07Jiri Kovalsky Don't worry about Marian's surname - I am at least glad you didn't say Milinkovich. :-)
    4:51:43amelongo this would permit the community to ask questions on feedback directly to the tutorial owner. Questions on feedback are really common on 'nbusers' and this because they don't have an appropriate place to ask them
    4:52:13Jiri Kovalsky I think this investigation is a really good one.
    4:52:29hmichel but which toturial has no feedback?
    4:52:58hmichel at least documentation on nb.org website has an 'Send Us Your Feedback' link
    4:53:14amelongo sometimes also the tutorial is entirely misleading, the MySQL tutorial is one of them or obsolete; so the community will try the tutorial and find some inconsistencies and it doesn't know who to ask
    4:53:24Jiri Kovalsky Some of them indeed have no feedback button. Like this: http://www.netbeans.org/kb/articles/security-webapps.html
    4:53:55amelongo I'm going to the bathroom, I'll be right back...
    4:55:54Jiri Kovalsky OK, I have discussed this with our docs team yesterday and they are aware of this. We don't have resources to compile such list of misleading docs/tutorials so contribution from community would be awesome.
    4:57:09Jiri Kovalsky But it occurred to me that if we setup a Wiki page with "buggy" docs these could be fixed one by one as time permits.
    4:57:45amelongo why not just create a mailing list dedicated to tutorials and each tutorial creator should subscribe to it. I think right now adding a feedback to tutorials will be more demanding
    4:59:45Jiri Kovalsky Well, there is such mailing list which is internal. The main point is to make sure that community has only one central place where to turn in doubt.
    5:00:27Jiri Kovalsky OK, I will follow-up with our Docs team and inform you via voc@netbeans.org list, ok?
    5:00:36hmichel I think, at least issues should be create for each incorrect doc
    5:00:59Jiri Kovalsky Sure, that would be better of course.
    5:01:04hmichel when we find it
    5:01:51hmichel Jiri, are the webpages in hg too?
    5:02:00Jiri Kovalsky Which pages do you mean?
    5:02:10hmichel doc at nb.org
    5:02:11Jiri Kovalsky www.netbeans.org?
    5:02:20hmichel yes
    5:02:22Jiri Kovalsky No, these are stored in CVS.
    5:02:27hmichel ok
    5:02:35hmichel we can use netfix to fix this kind of issue too
    5:02:58hmichel it is one way to have these things fixed asap
    5:02:58amelongo I don't think issuezilla is the way to go. It had to be a place where tutorial creator can answer questions regarding the tutorials created; a kind of interchange between community and tutorials creators
    5:03:30hmichel @melongo: I talked about where we can file when an tutorial has no feedback link
    5:03:56Jiri Kovalsky Actually, yes. Docs team would be the authority reviewing the English and doing the CVS Commit.
    5:03:59hmichel I agree that this kind of link and contact way should be available
    5:04:14Jiri Kovalsky BTW, bugs in documentation should be filed here: http://netbeans.org/bugzilla/enter_bug.cgi?component=www&subcomponent=documentation
    5:04:28hmichel we can have a pattern for these changes
    5:04:42amelongo if we force a feedback on each tutorial, then I agree with you on issuezilla, otherwise, if we choose a wiki or mailing list, then issuezilla isn't an option
    5:06:03amelongo sometimes, the community just want to ask a question regarding a tutorial, not necessarily asking for corrections, do you think wiki will work in that case?
    5:06:39Jiri Kovalsky I don't understand it. If I see a bug in tutorial, I report it against www/docs and discuss it with the Docs team there, right?
    5:07:26amelongo does the docs team know about technical issues? or are they just technical writers?
    5:09:08Jiri Kovalsky They are technical writers but majority of them is technology savvy. If I don't understand something in the tutorial I ask at nbusers. You think it would better to have a contact to the writer?
    5:10:14Jiri Kovalsky In my opinion we need a Wiki listing all the tutorials missing the contact/feedback info first.
    5:10:32amelongo I think it would be better to create a mailing list dedicated to tutorials answers and complaints and everybody at NB who has ever created a tutorial should subscribe to it and monitor it. I think that's the easy way to solve this issue
    5:11:48Jiri Kovalsky But how do those tutorial users know about it? We still must update all tutorials with this: "In case of questions, please send your inquiry to documentation@netbeans.org"
    5:11:56amelongo like I've said. sometimes they just want to ask a question, not necessarily something that's wrong with a tutorial
    5:12:50amelongo yes, something like that; and if at nbusers we encounter a question regarding a tutorial, we send them there...
    5:13:01Jiri Kovalsky Anyway, I think I have enough information now for the docs team to ask. I will brainstorm it with them and then forward it to you, ok?
    5:13:14amelongo ok
    5:13:28Jiri Kovalsky Great, so anything else Melongo?
    5:13:34amelongo no.done
    5:13:40Jiri Kovalsky Michel?
    5:13:54Jiri Kovalsky It's yours now.
    5:14:10hmichel no issues for today
    5:14:26hmichel I am really busy these last days
    5:14:44hmichel I just want to go really close with performance war about 6.7
    5:15:00Jiri Kovalsky What do you mean?
    5:15:49hmichel there is several posts from several sources, mainly mainlists as NetCAT as you know, nbusers and nbdev
    5:16:03Jiri Kovalsky Regarding poor performance?
    5:16:04hmichel I want to compile these problems, there are some issues too
    5:16:19hmichel and try to figure out what is going on
    5:16:24Jiri Kovalsky I think it's normal in this phase. Anyway, we need this feedback!
    5:16:30hmichel yes, regarding to performance at all
    5:16:41Jiri Kovalsky OK, then once you have it summarized let us know.
    5:16:43hmichel even about project scanning
    5:17:00hmichel and other issues
    5:17:16hmichel I need to figure out what is going on, understand what is truth and what is mith
    5:18:01hmichel btw, as we already know, bug projects are problem too, so, I need to understand each point and file issues when necessary
    5:18:12Jiri Kovalsky Great, any closing questions?
    5:18:20hmichel no more questions
    5:18:25Jiri Kovalsky Melongo?
    5:18:46amelongo what have you decided for the dependent issues @ issuezilla?
    5:19:13hmichel about it, we need to wait
    5:19:46Jiri Kovalsky I am afraid that our decision towards this is to sit & wait what future holds for the NetBeans project. :-\
    5:20:06hmichel all issues are fixed, but an update is necessary, what will not gonna happen right now
    5:20:30amelongo ok. I'll send you the link on javafx before the end of the day. Nothing on my side anymore
    5:20:53Jiri Kovalsky OK, then I consider our today's meeting closed.
    5:20:58hmichel ok people, see you soon
    5:21:06hmichel nice to see you again
    5:21:09amelongo bye
    5:21:09Jiri Kovalsky Thanks again for your time and effort you dedicate to VOC!
    5:21:11hmichel time to lunch
    5:21:14Jiri Kovalsky Bye
    5:21:18hmichel :D
    5:21:24amelongo left the conversation
    5:21:25hmichel bye


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