Transcript of Voice of Community chat

Topic: VOC meeting #3
Date: February 6th, 2009
Time: 3:00 PM Central European Time
Duration: 1 hour
Conversation: netbeans
Chat Client: NetBeans Developer Collaboration module
Participants:
  • Tushar Joshi (India)
  • Michel Graciano (Brazil)
  • Melongo Annabel (USA)
  • Jiri Kovalsky (Czech Republic)

  • Agenda:

    1. Update: NetBeans.next [Jiri, 10 minutes]
    2. Discussion: VOC mailing list subscriptions [all, 5 minutes]
    3. Discussion: Alternatives to online chats [all, 10 minutes]
    4. Update: Outstanding potential VOC issues [Melongo, Tushar, Michel, 25 minutes]
    5. Q&A [all, 10 minutes]

    Minutes:

  • VOC mailing list should be open to everybody - list is no longer private, subscription request accepted
  • Skype was selected as backup solution for VOC meetings (IDs: tusharvjoshi, michel.graciano, cesilko_ + TBA from Melongo)
  • VOC Captains are willing to help with testing staged version of new IssueZilla
  • Michel offers his help with #106831
  • Tushar considers #156183 as critical issue
  • Action items:

  • Melongo to install Skype on her Windows XP + provide her Skype account ID
  • Jiri to investigate #47233
  • Jiri to support Michel in case he contributes a patch(es) for #106831
  • Tushar to reproduce #156183 and ask Wade Chandler for his findings, then Jiri to talk to Richard Michalsky
  • Melongo to give Jiri an URL to Latex plugin binaries or contact person in order to publish it on NetBeans Update Center (#157529)
  • Jiri to talk about #149798 with Milan Kubec
  • 3:59:32tusharvjoshi joined the conversation
    3:59:36amelongo joined the conversation
    3:59:42Jiri Kovalsky Hello everyone!
    4:00:02amelongo Hi everyone
    4:00:21tusharvjoshi Hi
    4:00:55Jiri Kovalsky Michel is not here today? I see him online. Going to invite him right now ...
    4:02:15Jiri Kovalsky OK, let's start. I shared the agenda for reference.
    4:03:21Jiri Kovalsky The first item in the agenda is overall NetBeans project update.
    4:03:33Jiri Kovalsky So, as you might know Sun Microsystems as well as many other corporations face difficult times in this worldwide financial crisis and has to decrease its costs.
    4:03:47Jiri Kovalsky Hence it announced big layoffs for this calendar year and NetBeans project was also affected.
    4:04:08Jiri Kovalsky We lost two development teams in the US, 1 QE team in Russia, 1 developer in Prague, 2 program managers, some managers and couple of other individual contributors.
    4:04:51Jiri Kovalsky In addition to that a group of engineers was reallocated to work on other high priority project.
    4:05:06Jiri Kovalsky This all means that we won't be able to cover as much functionality as before.
    4:05:19Jiri Kovalsky Since last week we are working full steam on re-planning the future release and reconsidering what is doable and what is not. As a result some modules will get into maintained only status and some won't be even maintained.
    4:05:23hmichel joined the conversation
    4:05:34Jiri Kovalsky Hi Michel!
    4:05:42hmichel Hi people
    4:05:56Jiri Kovalsky So that's the reality. The reason I wanted to give you this update is probably obvious.
    4:06:26Jiri Kovalsky We won't be as efficient as originally meant in the VOC process concept document and I would like to use this opportunity to ask you for being more realistic and picky.
    4:06:49Jiri Kovalsky Simply put we all must lower our expectations.
    4:07:01Jiri Kovalsky Tushar, you wanted to ask something?
    4:07:23tusharvjoshi no please continue...
    4:07:33Jiri Kovalsky That's all.
    4:07:48Jiri Kovalsky You can ask questions if you want.
    4:07:56hmichel Could you send me the update?
    4:08:02tusharvjoshi Will this also mean that the declared milestone and release will be pushed further?
    4:08:16Jiri Kovalsky The good news is that NetBeans goes on and the next release is scheduled for June.
    4:08:36tusharvjoshi ok
    4:08:55Jiri Kovalsky Yes, the milestones might be pushed but only a bit because the FCS deadline is firm.
    4:09:12amelongo Jiri,when you mean we must all lower our expectations, what does it mean? Checking mailing lists less or be conservative in voting for issues?
    4:09:29Jiri Kovalsky The latter.
    4:10:16tusharvjoshi I think that will mean if we have picked top 5 issues then we may have the opportunity of getting only one or two getting resolved
    4:10:32Jiri Kovalsky Given the lower resources we unfortunately won't be able to implement everything and fix any bug you point us to.
    4:11:04Jiri Kovalsky That's right Tushar. We can expect more details to be known next week.
    4:12:41Jiri Kovalsky Michel, I am going to send you the update in a separate conversation, ok?
    4:12:49hmichel ok
    4:13:53Jiri Kovalsky OK, if you don't have more questions, let's go on.
    4:14:10tusharvjoshi yes lets go to next point
    4:14:56Jiri Kovalsky Fine, I am sure you all have seen that request for subscription, right?
    4:15:22tusharvjoshi yes
    4:15:39Jiri Kovalsky I had a little conversation with Tushar if we allow this or not.
    4:15:57Jiri Kovalsky What do you think? Do we want to open the list for everyone?
    4:16:25tusharvjoshi I think it is better as it is now, we will politely tell people that they cannot subscribe but they can post mails
    4:16:45amelongo Personally, I don't have any issue with opening it to everyone. It would be a way of people let us know about what they think...
    4:16:51tusharvjoshi One question though without subscribing will they be able to send a mail to the list?
    4:17:13tusharvjoshi If it is made open even I don't have any problem
    4:17:44hmichel I can't see any problem about people subscribing too
    4:18:11Jiri Kovalsky We agreed on the kick-off meeting that the list would be private i.e. only 4 of us are subscribed but others can post there which will generate moderation requests. Outsiders can also access web archive of the mailing list. My original intention was to have a list where we 4 can discuss what is and what is not a VOC issue.
    4:19:13tusharvjoshi I think the objective of the list shall remain same, but if someone wants to observe the process we can allow them to subscribe
    4:19:23Jiri Kovalsky Yes, they can send e-mails to that list and if it's not spam we will approve it.
    4:19:59Jiri Kovalsky Looks like we have agreement. So should I change the flag from private to public?
    4:21:27amelongo I think it would be best if we make the list accessible. The list is a voice of community one, and it would be great if that community can get in touch with us directly. Otherwise it would be like representing someone while being out of reach for him/her. Making the list private, in my opinion, defeats that purpose
    4:21:44tusharvjoshi ok from me, anyway we all are moderators
    4:21:58hmichel Any problem to me, looks fair for me
    4:22:31Jiri Kovalsky Great, thanks for your opinion. Let's move on.
    4:22:46tusharvjoshi yes
    4:24:25Jiri Kovalsky We consider shutting down share.java.net collaboration server which allows chats like this. Hence we might want to find out another similar service where we could meet. Any idea, suggestion?
    4:24:50amelongo the yahoo chat
    4:25:23Jiri Kovalsky Do you have a good experience with this guys?
    4:25:41tusharvjoshi I have no experience of Yahoo chat
    4:25:59tusharvjoshi Can we use any other server which is public for this collaboration tool
    4:26:03Jiri Kovalsky Do I need a client installed for this?
    4:26:15Jiri Kovalsky Does it work on Unix based systems?
    4:26:30tusharvjoshi I use Skype group chat for our work meetings
    4:26:45tusharvjoshi Skype works in Linux and Windows and Mac
    4:27:01amelongo yes. one only need to have a yahoo id, download and install the software and invite someone to the conversation. That's it.
    4:27:15Jiri Kovalsky Michel?
    4:27:27hmichel I have access here for Skype, GTalk and this service. Any other service I need ask for permission
    4:27:57Jiri Kovalsky OK, Skype works for me too.
    4:28:03amelongo ok let go for Skype then, though I've never used it
    4:28:18Jiri Kovalsky What OS are you on Melongo?
    4:28:27tusharvjoshi I have fair experience of Skype and it is working fine for me since 1 year
    4:28:28amelongo XP
    4:28:43Jiri Kovalsky Great, Skype is not an issue there...
    4:28:44tusharvjoshi I have many members using Suse Linux with Skype
    4:28:59hmichel I use Ubuntu with Skyoe without any problem too
    4:29:26tusharvjoshi we will have to share our Skype IDs then mine is tusharvjoshi
    4:29:32Jiri Kovalsky Fine, so let's tentatively count with Skype, ok?
    4:29:45hmichel ok
    4:29:52Jiri Kovalsky Mine is cesilko_
    4:30:08amelongo I think we should put or ids in the list so we can invite each other then...
    4:30:38Jiri Kovalsky Yep. Let's do it after this chat.
    4:30:44tusharvjoshi ok
    4:30:44hmichel mine is michel.graciano
    4:30:53amelongo I don't have one yet. I'll post it on the list...
    4:31:29Jiri Kovalsky Thanks Michel and thanks Tushar for immediate authorization. The next item on the agenda is the VOC itself.
    4:32:07Jiri Kovalsky Michel, please go first and describe your issues.
    4:32:17hmichel ok
    4:32:51hmichel I have 2 issues I sent yesterday
    4:32:55hmichel the first one is #47233
    4:33:13hmichel this is not about IDE itself, but about project Issuezilla
    4:33:44hmichel the problem about votes are lost when issue has component changed
    4:34:48hmichel My point here is just try to make this available as soon as possible. We can see several problems about it, many votes on this issue. The expectation is to update the system just the end of 2009, but I hope to see it soon
    4:35:51hmichel What do you think?
    4:36:01Jiri Kovalsky OK, let me say something about it since I have a good news regarding this.
    4:37:21amelongo Actually, I had a similar situations while viewing votes. Dependent votes are resolved while the originals votes are left open. Sometimes also, when someone votes, it doesn't even show up.
    4:37:39Jiri Kovalsky I attended webteam meeting this week and asked about this problem. The answer is that the ball is on our side now so if we dedicate some resources for deployment and testing the new version CEE 5.2 p1 could be live sooner than fall 2009.
    4:38:25tusharvjoshi When Melongo mentioned is observed by me also, one friend told me he voted on an issue when I could not see his vote after that
    4:39:00hmichel There is anything we, the community, could to do to make this happen?
    4:39:00tusharvjoshi Jiri that is a good news
    4:39:11Jiri Kovalsky OK, I take it and will watch its progress. I even offered my own bandwidth to test the staged new IssueZilla.
    4:39:45Jiri Kovalsky Not now. However will you help with testing if it is possible?
    4:39:54hmichel I can help to test without any problem, since I use issuezilla a lot, it will be easy to me
    4:40:06amelongo I can test too.
    4:40:15Jiri Kovalsky Excellent. Second issue Michel?
    4:40:18tusharvjoshi For testing I can also spend some time
    4:40:34Jiri Kovalsky Great Tushar!
    4:40:46hmichel the second one, in the truth, is just a try to organize issuezilla
    4:41:03Jiri Kovalsky What do you mean?
    4:41:04hmichel the issue #106831 treat about Matisse refactorings
    4:41:42hmichel since several issues are on this issue, I wish to know what is possible to do about it
    4:42:16hmichel the issue I talked last time, about JavaBean property rename, probably is the first candidate to this
    4:43:10hmichel if it is necessary, I can file the issues separately and add as dependence by myself
    4:43:28Jiri Kovalsky So, you mean this is actually an umbrella issue?
    4:43:51hmichel I really wish to see a better Matisse refactoring support for next releases
    4:44:32hmichel Yes, I see it as a umbrella, if you see the first post, it has several refactorings which are missing, which I think should be filed separately, with details for each one
    4:44:47Jiri Kovalsky So do I the question is if Matisse will remain a priority.
    4:45:10hmichel yes, it is a important question
    4:45:28hmichel btw, I will try to help with some patches always as possible
    4:45:49Jiri Kovalsky Are you serious Michel?
    4:45:54hmichel and, organize issuezilla is important to track which refactorings are more important than others
    4:46:28Jiri Kovalsky I see. Do you mean you could implement some of the requested features yourself?
    4:46:43hmichel probably I can take a look about it
    4:47:12tusharvjoshi I think Michel means organizing the issue into doable smaller issues
    4:47:15Jiri Kovalsky That would be awesome. Please let us know via voc@netbeans.org list your findings then.
    4:47:38Jiri Kovalsky I understand but I am not sure this is what Tomas Pavek wanted.
    4:47:49hmichel I have another small isuees which are no so hard to implement. I need just organize my schedule to work on it, since I work at another projects, open sources and not
    4:48:28Jiri Kovalsky OK, so please don't create new issues for the time being, just add your comments to that issue #106831.
    4:48:41hmichel Yes, it is why I asking by VOC, because I understand that it is the correct way to do, and discuss with Tomas and another Matisse developers about it
    4:49:01hmichel Yes, I am wainting for the approval, or not, to make this happen
    4:49:15Jiri Kovalsky If you decide to work on something, create new issue, add dependency and attach your patch. Plus let me know and I will manage the rest inside our team. OK?
    4:49:31hmichel ok, no problem. Thanks
    4:50:15Jiri Kovalsky Great, we are running out of time, so next is Tushar as he sent his issue via e-mail in advance as well. Tushar?
    4:50:21Jiri Kovalsky The floor is yours ...
    4:50:24tusharvjoshi #156183 Make projects usable during "project initializing"
    4:50:33tusharvjoshi I have question about this issue
    4:51:05tusharvjoshi There are many votes for this issue.  The effective performance of IDE is more like perceived performance
    4:51:20Jiri Kovalsky Yes, and the question is?
    4:51:37tusharvjoshi This issue is shown as assigned to a developer, can we accelerate the development for next release?
    4:53:19Jiri Kovalsky Well, if I understand it correctly, there is a cache implemented and Wade Chandler was asked for his measurements but still didn't provide his feedback.
    4:53:32Jiri Kovalsky Have you tried this Tushar yourself?
    4:53:58tusharvjoshi I didn't got the opportunity to try myself, but I can do that in the coming days
    4:55:04Jiri Kovalsky That would be cool. Also please approach Wade to find out if he did his part or not. Then get back to me and I will talk to Richard Michalsky (my close friend by the way) and ask him about the status. OK?
    4:55:41tusharvjoshi Ok I note this as an action item for me.  Good to know Richard is your close friend
    4:56:08Jiri Kovalsky Great, I was not sure what you meant ...
    4:56:16Jiri Kovalsky Is that all Tushar?
    4:56:25tusharvjoshi yes it all from my side
    4:56:48Jiri Kovalsky Fine, so now let's listen to Melongo! The floor is yours ...
    4:57:05amelongo ok
    4:57:18amelongo I was working on two issues last week
    4:59:49amelongo This first on is: #157529 This issue didn't have a voting link, so there's no way of knowing how many people were interested in the feature. The good news however is that there's a third party company having developed that plugin and made it accessible to NB. Since we had to be conservative, the issue has been updated on how to get that third party plugin inside NB. So I don't think it's right now much of a priority.
    5:00:51Jiri Kovalsky Oh, yes I have noticed your conversation about this on nbusers!
    5:01:01amelongo The second issue is a more serious one: #149798
    5:01:53Jiri Kovalsky Melongo, wait.
    5:02:26Jiri Kovalsky Is the first issue about just posting the plugin on the NetBeans Update Center or Plugin Portal?
    5:03:01Jiri Kovalsky If so and it exists, I own both things so publishing should not be a problem and I can support them or do it myself.
    5:03:33amelongo It is to have it available on netbeans and it doesn't. One should go to another company and get it...
    5:04:12Jiri Kovalsky But I read there that the plugin works with NetBeans 6.5 as well. I am confused.
    5:04:16tusharvjoshi If it starts appearing in the plugin portal and then in the plugins dialog it will be easier and appear easy to install
    5:04:53Jiri Kovalsky Melongo, if you provide me with a link to the NBM file and contact person I will resolve this myself, ok?
    5:05:08amelongo Ok I will.
    5:05:19Jiri Kovalsky Great, now let's take a look at the 2nd issue.
    5:05:34hmichel about the second issue, take a look at #121054
    5:05:43hmichel it has 90 duplicates
    5:05:50amelongo Yes, that the problem
    5:05:55hmichel I think it is already a P1
    5:06:15amelongo it is? someone just complains about it yesterday...
    5:06:15Jiri Kovalsky Why do you think it's serious? 90 dups? Where do you see it?
    5:07:16tusharvjoshi I can see this is an issue reported by the exception reported in NetBeans which logs and sends the issue to the issue zilla
    5:07:18Jiri Kovalsky I see last report on December 8th.
    5:07:51Jiri Kovalsky Exactly. Rajiv Perera was very efficient in this during NetCAT 6.5.
    5:08:08Jiri Kovalsky Did you encounter this yourself Melongo?
    5:08:09hmichel the page I sent, you can see how much dups you have, and the last one was 2009-02-06
    5:08:15amelongo It's serious because it exists in: #159137 and issuezilla. So since it has only 2 votes in issuezilla, it's not much of a priority for the NB developers. Whereas under the statistics, it has 90 duplicates. By the way what is the 'statistics' for?
    5:09:39Jiri Kovalsky It's an automated service that cumulates issues reported automatically via Exception Reporter or UI Gestures Collector.
    5:09:51hmichel I just can't access the nb wiki right now, but if I am not wrong, about 50 dups it is P2, and 100 it becomes a P1
    5:10:01Jiri Kovalsky If an exception has 5 duplicates it's automatically reported to IssueZilla.
    5:10:41amelongo My question is that why is it the dup are greater than the votes?
    5:10:53Jiri Kovalsky Melongo, how did you come accross this issue?
    5:11:12tusharvjoshi I got lot of new information here I will surely blog the working of the issue zilla and priority raising concept
    5:11:28Jiri Kovalsky Because votes come from humans and duplicate entries in Statistics server come from machines.
    5:11:43hmichel because votes are manually, developer should click at Vote issue link, the duplicates are sent automatically.
    5:12:19amelongo Someone complains about it in the beginning of the week and said that the issue has been around since October 2008. So I took a look at it...
    5:13:19Jiri Kovalsky OK thanks for clarification. Honestly, I doubt this is so serious but I will talk to Milan Kubec (assigned developer) about it and get back to you, ok?
    5:13:33amelongo Thanks.
    5:13:51Jiri Kovalsky Perfect, so any closing questions/thoughts?
    5:14:02tusharvjoshi I have one question
    5:14:19tusharvjoshi As there is a community docs blog, can I start a group blog for VOC?
    5:14:29amelongo In the next meeting are we going with skype or Collaboration?
    5:14:45hmichel no more questions now
    5:15:12tusharvjoshi By group blog I mean a blogspot blog with all of us as members
    5:15:43Jiri Kovalsky Please hold your horses Tushar. In other words don't start special blog yet. Let's wait some more time when the future is more clear and then ask again.
    5:15:57tusharvjoshi ok Jiri
    5:16:38Jiri Kovalsky Melongo, next meeting will be again in this conversation. I will inform you if we have to resettle, ok?
    5:16:53amelongo ok, then
    5:17:02Jiri Kovalsky Great, so are we done for today?
    5:17:08tusharvjoshi yes
    5:17:12amelongo yes
    5:17:18hmichel I think so


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