| 17:00:09 | Alex Lam: hi Roumen
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| 17:00:24 | Roumen: hi guys
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| 17:00:30 | RK: The formatted text mode is better than HTML mode, that was what I was looking for previously
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| 17:00:39 | Cesilko: [17:00] *** 1. Introduction ***
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| 17:00:43 | Masoud: hi Roumen
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| 17:00:46 | RK: Hi Roman!
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| 17:00:48 | Glenn Holmer: Hi Roumen, we love your Flash demos!
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| 17:00:58 | Alex Lam: hurray
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| 17:01:02 | Roumen: thanks...
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| 17:01:14 | Daniel MD: Popular acclamation :Roumen we all love you
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| 17:01:15 | Masoud: we have many NETCAT folk here @Glenn
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| 17:01:19 | Roumen: More demos will come... don't worry
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| 17:01:21 | Cesilko: Well, I think we are all here finally so let me warmly welcome everybody who decided to join this conversation.
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| 17:01:28 | Glenn Holmer: Hi Masoud!
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| 17:01:37 | Geertjan joined the conversation |
| 17:01:41 | John Jullion-Ceccarelli: everybody should be doing flash demos!
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| 17:01:42 | Daniel MD: Masoud: True
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| 17:01:48 | Cesilko: I want to highlight that this is the very first chat organized for NetBeans community and its "official" part should be ~1 hour long.
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| 17:01:56 | Geertjan: Hey dudes.
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| 17:02:05 | John Jullion-Ceccarelli: See this: http://www.netbeans.org/kb/articles/CreateWinkDemo.html
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| 17:02:08 | Cesilko: My name is Jiri Kovalsky and I will kind of moderate this chat.
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| 17:02:09 | Alex Lam: hi Geertjan
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| 17:02:14 | Vano Beridze joined the conversation |
| 17:02:14 | Daniel MD: Geertjan: Documentation Hero welcome
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| 17:02:20 | RK: John, we can we get the flash demo templates?
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| 17:02:26 | Geertjan: Hi there Alex and Daniel.
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| 17:02:26 | Cesilko: I have tried to write down basic rules for the upcoming discussion and you can see result of my work in chat_rules.java file.
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| 17:02:33 | Masoud: hi geertjan
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| 17:02:34 | RK: shit you answered my question before I asked it
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| 17:02:35 | Vano Beridze: Hello everybody
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| 17:02:39 | Cesilko: Wait a second folks ...
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| 17:02:42 | Roumen: http://www.netbeans.org/kb/articles/CreateWinkDemo.html
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| 17:02:43 | Geertjan: Hey Masoud, our man in Iran!
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| 17:02:50 | John Jullion-Ceccarelli: They're there in that link I sent. Anyway, let me let Jirka moderate and we'll get to it in a second
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| 17:02:59 | Alex Lam: should we pay attention to Cesilko for a second?
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| 17:03:12 | Daniel MD: wait ppl... Jiri is trying to talk!
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| 17:03:12 | John Jullion-Ceccarelli: Yes!
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| 17:03:23 | Michael Mouer joined the conversation |
| 17:03:24 | Cesilko: OK, thanks !
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| 17:04:06 | Cesilko: OK, so once again: Well, I think we are all here finally so let me warmly welcome everybody who decided to join this conversation. I want to highlight that this is the very first chat organized for NetBeans community and its "official" part should be ~1 hour long. My name is Jiri Kovalsky and I will kind of moderate this chat. I have tried to write down basic rules for the upcoming discussion and you can see result of my work in chat_rules.java file. I hope you will find it at least funny. If you feel like making it compilable, it's up to you !
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| 17:04:30 | Cesilko: Does everybody understand what I meant ? It's probably reasonable to recommend not to have more than 1 unanswered question in the air. Okay ?
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| 17:04:42 | Roumen: Cesilko you have errors in your code
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| 17:04:54 | Cesilko: Oh, really ? How come ?
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| 17:04:57 | Daniel MD: lots fo tehm
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| 17:05:09 | Dr.J joined the conversation |
| 17:05:11 | Jiri Prox joined the conversation |
| 17:05:13 | John Jullion-Ceccarelli: set your classpath!
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| 17:05:20 | John Jullion-Ceccarelli:
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| 17:05:26 | Roumen: Yes maybe we miss your libraries
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| 17:05:42 | Cesilko: Yep. If you make it compilable, you get a t-shirt !
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| 17:05:51 | Alex Lam: really? :-O
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| 17:05:59 | Vano Beridze: I use NetBeans 5.0 with mustang build 78 and it deadlocks on opening web.xml
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| 17:06:04 | Geertjan: Wow half the world and their mother seem to be here (i.e., a lot).
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| 17:06:04 | Alex Lam: I'm getting all excited now
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| 17:06:07 | Cesilko: No, I was joking. It's just not to use plain TXT.
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| 17:06:30 | Cesilko: Vano, that's unfortunately known issue.
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| 17:06:40 | Alex Lam: Cesilko: sorry I've forgotten to switch back
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| 17:06:44 | Daniel MD: Vano: i think that is an issue with mustang
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| 17:06:59 | Masoud: I get the same @ Vano ,
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| 17:07:01 | Thomas Corbin joined the conversation |
| 17:07:21 | Masoud: mustag b63 here
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| 17:07:23 | Cesilko: [17:05] *** 2. Satisfaction with NetBeans 5.0 *** So, introduction is over and we can move on. In this part we would like to find out how you like new NetBeans 5.0 ?
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| 17:07:36 | Alex Lam: Mustang b77 here
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| 17:07:43 | Alex Lam: coz Jackpot does not like b78
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| 17:07:46 | John Jullion-Ceccarelli: Ummm, Maxim, can you unshare that project?
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| 17:08:12 | Glenn Holmer: Love 5.0. Still seeing some lingering issues with CVS, but we'll be switching to Subversion soon.
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| 17:08:19 | Cesilko: Do you want the issue # Vano ?
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| 17:08:21 | Alex Lam: Basically for me Java development == NetBeans
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| 17:08:31 | Vano Beridze: For me too
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| 17:08:32 | Cesilko: Cool then !
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| 17:08:36 | Maxym Mykhalchuk: Hi John, I'll close myself now, I cannot unshare it
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| 17:08:37 | Daniel MD: Casilko: As teh NetCAt ppl know some stuff did not made it to 5.0, but overall i am happy with it.
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| 17:08:47 | John Jullion-Ceccarelli: Sorry, didn't mean to chase you off...
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| 17:08:50 | Vano Beridze: I find myselft very productive with editor hints
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| 17:09:01 | Maxym Mykhalchuk: It's OK
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| 17:09:02 | Masoud: i am happy with 5 and optimistic for 6
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| 17:09:02 | Maxym Mykhalchuk left the conversation |
| 17:09:08 | Vano Beridze: Also refactorings are super :D
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| 17:09:19 | Alex Lam: FYI, I'm using NetBeans 6 at the moment
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| 17:09:23 | Vano Beridze: First there will be 5.5
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| 17:09:28 | Michal Hlavac left the conversation |
| 17:09:31 | Thomas Corbin: I certainly like netbeans 5.0 MUCH better than creator2. I have been envious of the stuff available in 5.0 and not available in creator2.
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| 17:09:32 | Michal Hlavac joined the conversation |
| 17:09:39 | Cesilko: It's interesting Masoud. But we will get to 6.0 later.
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| 17:09:40 | Alex Lam: Matisse is magic
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| 17:09:57 | Masoud: refactoring will come super super with jackpot integrated in netbeans
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| 17:10:01 | Petr Vlček: I like NB because it can be set up in very short time with basic functionality (when compared to eclipse), must say that you are getting better . Looking forward for Subversion support.
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| 17:10:05 | Daniel MD: Well i am waiting for JavaONE to see what is going to happen (OpenSource of the PACKS?Enterprise, Mobility?).
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| 17:10:15 | Thomas Corbin: I look forward to the jsf stuff from creator2 being available in netbeans itself. We're also looking at using matisse with spring-rich.
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| 17:10:26 | John Jullion-Ceccarelli: Want to ask about Matisse - have people had success modifying existing forms in Matisse? Meaning you've done your whole form and now you want to move something a little bit or insert a row of components?
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| 17:10:30 | Cesilko: The deadlock with web.xml in 5.5 is reported here: http://www.netbeans.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=74384
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| 17:10:32 | Roumen: Re: subversion have you already seen my subversion demo?
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| 17:10:52 | Thomas Corbin: Ah, I haven't, but I am looking forward to seeing your subversion demo.
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| 17:10:54 | Scott Kneeland joined the conversation |
| 17:11:01 | Petr Vlček: 2 Roumen: yes , it was great
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| 17:11:02 | Roumen: http://blogs.sun.com/roller/page/roumen?entry=flash_demo_of_new_subversion
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| 17:11:11 | Michal Hlavac: subversion support looks good...
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| 17:11:15 | Alex Lam: yes, I have seen the demo - when is the first public build of the real thing?
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| 17:11:18 | Roumen: sorry for my shameles self-promotion :D
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| 17:11:23 | Vano Beridze: Roumen I've seen it. Actually I visit your blogs every day. You're doing good, keep making good demos
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| 17:11:23 | Thomas Corbin: I stopped using the cvs integration because of the version info in the editor tab title.
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| 17:11:25 | John Jullion-Ceccarelli: shame on you!
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| 17:11:44 | Thomas Corbin:
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| 17:11:49 | Alex Lam: that's alright Roumen - no one will blame you here
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| 17:11:53 | John Jullion-Ceccarelli: Thomas, because you miss it or because it's there?
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| 17:12:00 | Roumen: it's actually not even a build yet... I just checked out the sources of 6.0 and the subversion module and built it
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| 17:12:01 | Glenn Holmer: Roumen, just bookmarked it, can't wait to see it!
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| 17:12:09 | avbravo: the visual interface for java server faces into netbeans?
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| 17:12:29 | Thomas Corbin: Oh, because it's there and so I see fewer tabs and I like to see more tabs so it is easier to switch between them.
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| 17:12:32 | Daniel MD: avbravo: It should be comming...
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| 17:12:36 | Jason Burich joined the conversation |
| 17:12:41 | Masoud: There will be some integration between JSC and netbeans 5 later this year AFAI read in blogs ;- )
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| 17:12:45 | Vano Beridze: Daniel in 5.5?
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| 17:12:50 | Thomas Corbin: I really enjoy Roumen's blog, it's great.
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| 17:12:55 | Glenn Holmer: Are we still going to get the CVS view that shows revisions and tags together?
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| 17:13:07 | Daniel MD: I am not sure check Tor blog for dates
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| 17:13:07 | Thomas Corbin: Yes, I'm looking forward to the JSC and netbeans integration later on.
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| 17:13:08 | John Jullion-Ceccarelli: avbravo - that's coming, we'll talk future plans later, including subversion. for now, i'd like to hear your thoughts on 5.0. seriously, is matisse really mature or is it just a toy? what things do you have trouble with? (looking for things we need to cover in docs)
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| 17:13:22 | Walter Barnes: Wow! wasn't expecting that
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| 17:13:28 | Roumen: we will demo Creator 2 modules based on NetBeans on Java One... this will be something like alpha
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| 17:13:41 | Masoud: Netbeans + JCS will be killer
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| 17:13:47 | Thomas Corbin: For me, since I use spring-rich, integration with spring-rich is important before I can use matisse. Fortunately there are efforts to make that happen.
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| 17:14:08 | Thomas Corbin: Oh, good - I'll read about the Java one JSC/netbeans info in people's blogs.
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| 17:14:19 | Cesilko: Well, am I the only one hardly trying to read all the comments without any chance to react immediatelly ?
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| 17:14:23 | Walter Barnes: Too many files came in at once at netbeans blinked out for 10 min... I'm afraid I'm a bit behind
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| 17:14:25 | Geertjan: Anyone here going to be at JavaOne?
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| 17:14:29 | Alex Lam: NetBeans 5.0 is a serious killer though - my friends around me start to see the light with this release
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| 17:14:38 | Thomas Corbin: Cesilko: it's hard to keep up!
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| 17:14:40 | Vano Beridze: John Jullion-Ceccarelli: Matisse lacks positionings
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| 17:14:48 | John Jullion-Ceccarelli: What do you mean positionings?
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| 17:14:48 | Glenn Holmer: I plan to go to NetBeans Software Day, but not JavaOne.
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| 17:14:59 | Masoud: Roumen , will be any public availablity of JCS module for netbeans 5 after on during javaone ?
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| 17:15:01 | Geertjan: Okay, see you there Glenn.
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| 17:15:04 | Thomas Corbin: I don't know about netbeans, but I've found creator2 to be a bit buggy. But overall fairly good.
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| 17:15:14 | Vano Beridze: For example I want to have 3 controls and the same height between them
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| 17:15:17 | Alex Lam: and a few of them were ranting about NB5 not coming out sooner, coz they've chosen Ecllipse for their final year project and it's half way already
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| 17:15:18 | David Beer left the conversation |
| 17:15:20 | Roumen: Masoud, I don't know yet
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| 17:15:23 | Cesilko: Exactly ! @Thomas
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| 17:15:36 | Petr Adamek joined the conversation |
| 17:15:37 | Michael Mouer: matisse is good - problem I've had is filling a JTable placed on a JScrollPane with data - can add & label columns in the TableModelEditor - but can't find model name to add data.
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| 17:15:38 | Masoud: JCS is nb 4.1 based so ,it is not as cool as nebteans 5
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| 17:15:42 | Thomas Corbin: I certainly enjoy the netbeans community.
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| 17:15:44 | Petr Vlček: Hi, Petr .
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| 17:15:47 | RK: GJ: I'm at java one
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| 17:15:50 | John Jullion-Ceccarelli: Does selecting them, right-clicking, and choosing Same Size gt; Same height not work?
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| 17:15:52 | Daniel MD: @celsiko: You guys, dont' spend time in IRC channel
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| 17:15:54 | Thomas Corbin: Yes, I agree with you Masoud.
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| 17:15:59 | Geertjan: Cool RK!
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| 17:16:08 | Masoud: i am really excited to see people of same interests here
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| 17:16:12 | Thomas Corbin: No, I sure don't spend time in IRC, so I am not used to this.
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| 17:16:22 | Vano Beridze: No I want to make same distance between controls
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| 17:16:31 | John Jullion-Ceccarelli: yes, specifying the model is a bit tricky. a colleague just did it here, let me see if I can dig up his email where he explained it
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| 17:16:38 | Thomas Corbin: I'll be jealous of those of you at java one - I expect to read all about it in the blogs!
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| 17:16:54 | Daniel MD: @Thomes +1
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| 17:16:59 | Geertjan: Thomas Corbin, my blog will make it feel as if you are there!
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| 17:16:59 | Alex Lam: +1
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| 17:17:05 | David Beer joined the conversation |
| 17:17:13 | Vano Beridze: I wish I have money to attend javaone
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| 17:17:14 | Cesilko: Welcome David !
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| 17:17:21 | Thomas Corbin: I apprecate it, Geertjan. I certainly like your blog already. it's been helpful.
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| 17:17:36 | Masoud: Thank for your weblog @Geertjan
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| 17:17:43 | Daniel MD: Geertjan blog: is technically the best i read
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| 17:17:51 | John Jullion-Ceccarelli: Oh yes, one way to do it (I think) is to create your own instance of a model first in the file, then select in in the model property editor.
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| 17:18:02 | Thomas Corbin: I love Roumen's podcasts too.
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| 17:18:06 | Alex Lam: hey shall we shout out vocabs about NB5?
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| 17:18:12 | Masoud: is it hard to moderate the conversation @Cesilko
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| 17:18:13 | Roumen: Glenn: I am sure you'll hear about Creator modules based on NetBeans on NB day in San Francisco as well. Hopefully they will manage to integrate it... it's a lot of work. The new EJB 3.0 persistance is also very cool...
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| 17:18:20 | Daniel MD: Roumen: Is teh best, becasue of variaty, flahs demos, persnal, etc...
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| 17:18:48 | Alex Lam: Matisse
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| 17:18:50 | Thomas Corbin: Is the new EJB 3.0 persistance going to be integrated with Matisse databindings?
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| 17:18:51 | Roumen: Thanks, guys... let's stick to what Cesilko wants to discuss But thanks for praising my blogs etc.
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| 17:18:54 | John Jullion-Ceccarelli: thomas corbin - aha, yeah, we don't have the same distance between components thing. do you have an example of a program that does that (doesn't necessarily have to be swing builder)
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| 17:18:56 | Alex Lam: Refactoring
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| 17:18:56 | Cesilko: It's impossible ! @ Masoud
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| 17:19:18 | Vano Beridze: Visual Studio
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| 17:19:18 | Alex Lam: Ease of use
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| 17:19:23 | Masoud: Alex like JackPot
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| 17:19:27 | Thomas Corbin: I'm sorry JJC, I lost track of the questions and topics.
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| 17:19:27 | John Jullion-Ceccarelli: OK - will take a look
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| 17:19:48 | Glenn Holmer: What about CVS tags (issue 66138)? will we see this?
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| 17:19:48 | Roumen: Databindings with Matisse are a theme for NetBeans 6.0
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| 17:19:57 | Alex Lam: yes I do, I think Jackpot is going to be the star in NetBeans
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| 17:20:06 | John Jullion-Ceccarelli: I know, it's chaos here was asking what product has same spacing between components. Vano says visual Studio
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| 17:20:18 | Daniel MD: @celsiko: Why not create a file with topic for name, so ppl keep on topic? Oh then the refresh problem forget it.
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| 17:20:25 | Masoud: Databinding will promote Matisse more than one steps ahead
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| 17:20:31 | Thomas Corbin: But will it be integrated with persistance, or does that even make sense? Will the data bindings come from the swingX stuff?
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| 17:20:38 | John Jullion-Ceccarelli: oh yeah... big things coming in the editor area...
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| 17:20:55 | Thomas Corbin: I'm looking for some formatting support from the editor.
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| 17:21:12 | Roumen: The databindings should come from swingx, yes
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| 17:21:14 | David Beer left the conversation |
| 17:21:29 | Thomas Corbin: Ah cool - I'll have to read up on them to prepare for that then. (swingx bindings)
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| 17:21:45 | Walter Barnes: Cesilko: I'm a bit out of the loop, my internet is a bit chunky, when all the files came in NetBeans blanked out for 10 min
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| 17:21:53 | Daniel MD: swingX has allot of cool stuff, i know that they will do an awsome demo in javaONE
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| 17:21:54 | Roumen: it's now called swinglabs
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| 17:22:12 | Cesilko: It's one of the planned improvements @Glenn but now we work full steam on SubVersion. It will most probably get fixed via AUC.
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| 17:22:16 | Roumen: https://swinglabs.dev.java.net/
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| 17:22:21 | Masoud: Editor is heart of ide , what other people think ?
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| 17:22:31 | Roumen: I absolutely agree, Masoud!
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| 17:22:31 | Walter Barnes: Cesilko: If it's not too much trouble, could you provide a recap of what I missed?
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| 17:22:37 | Vano Beridze: I completely agree
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| 17:22:38 | Cesilko: Which files you mean Walter ?
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| 17:22:46 | Alex Lam: I agree Masoud
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| 17:22:52 | Glenn Holmer: Thanks Jiri :)
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| 17:22:59 | Daniel MD: @masoud: I would if it was a bit faster, and had some more features
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| 17:23:00 | Cesilko: Well, guys I will surely publish transcript tomorrow !
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| 17:23:01 | Jason Burich left the conversation |
| 17:23:02 | Thomas Corbin: I do spend most of my time editing, but I also think an important use of an ide for me is to gather info, to find out what methods are available, following call chains, and to make coherent changes in code.
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| 17:23:18 | Maxym Mykhalchuk joined the conversation |
| 17:23:35 | Masoud: so we should have more intellegent Editor at the first priority for netbeans 6 , we really need first class editor with a first class IDe
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| 17:23:42 | John Jullion-Ceccarelli: Walter - a recap is kinda tough, since things are going so fast. Right now we're talking about satisfaction with 50 but it's morphing towards what we'd like in the future...
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| 17:24:01 | Thomas Corbin: A wayward conversation.
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| 17:24:02 | Jason Burich joined the conversation |
| 17:24:10 | Alex Lam: so shall we list out what we like about the NB Editor @ NB5 first?
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| 17:24:20 | Masoud: :| @ Thomas
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| 17:24:22 | Alex Lam: then we can start looking into RFEs
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| 17:24:23 | Cesilko: I have some info on 6.0 guys, don't worry. Although it's rather moderate ...
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| 17:24:30 | Daniel MD: @Massoud: +1 (editor should be priority for main IDE), UML for enterprise pack, and CDC for mobility pack, all my top priorities for 6.0 release.
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| 17:24:35 | Thomas Corbin: I am sorry for you guys, but I think a lot of people come to netbeans from eclipse, so a lot of conversations start, "But in Eclipse, we could do this..."
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| 17:24:38 | Walter Barnes: The ones in the share file box... I think NB might have started a GC at the same moment they came in
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| 17:24:39 | Jason Burich left the conversation |
| 17:25:21 | Thomas Corbin: I like some things in netbeans better than in eclipse, as far as the editor, but some things worse.
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| 17:25:21 | Masoud: ) @ walter
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| 17:25:46 | Michael Mouer left the conversation |
| 17:25:54 | Scott Kneeland: Examples, TC?
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| 17:26:07 | Cesilko: OK, thanks for this wild discussion.
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| 17:26:25 | Masoud: lets listen to Jiri
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| 17:26:27 | Geertjan: Hurray for me, I just solved a Wicket problem.
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| 17:26:31 | Cesilko: [17:25] *** 3. Need some help ? *** OK, our time is limited and I would like to switch to another item.
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| 17:26:48 | Cesilko: With NetBeans 5.0 we (NetBeans development team) started to work on also other activites that would help you use out IDE.
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| 17:26:52 | RK: hurray Geertjan
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| 17:27:00 | Daniel MD: yes this one interestes me the most, what stuff should have more support?
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| 17:27:08 | Cesilko: That's why I invite John Jullion-Ceccarelli, our docs team rep. Can you elaborate this John a bit ?
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| 17:27:10 | Thomas Corbin: Oh, I like the way eclipse auto indents better, when typing the parameters of a method call. Or the way it indents better when I'm leaving more spaces between the start of a comment text and the "//" - we have standardized on 4 spaces there. Or that I can get a tab/panel showing the hierarchy of a class.
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| 17:27:15 | Daniel MD: more flash movies and tuts?
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| 17:27:42 | Alex Lam: Yes - as someone mentioned some time ago, insertion of components into a ready-made Matisse form could get into troubles at times
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| 17:27:47 | Vano Beridze: Good subversion integration and jsf support
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| 17:27:53 | John Jullion-Ceccarelli: OK, so on the support and docs front, we've been doing lots of stuff.
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| 17:28:01 | Thomas Corbin: I like the way you can say "I want to replace this variable, but just in this method."
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| 17:28:26 | Thomas Corbin: In netbeans, I like the alt-f7 and search and replace.
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| 17:28:43 | Thomas Corbin: Yes, the tutorials, flash, and blogs have been great.
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| 17:28:53 | Daniel MD: I ahve problems with docs format, (they don't render all the same) but i thnk this is more of a collab.net problem
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| 17:28:54 | Thomas Corbin: The example projects are really nice, too.
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| 17:29:01 | John Jullion-Ceccarelli: The first thing is we've been getting all of the developers to contribute docs as part of their regular duties, and a lot of these have shown up on netbeans.org under Making the Most of NetBeans. Does anyone go to the main nb.org web page to look at what new docs are out there?
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| 17:29:19 | Cesilko: Can you John mention the most interesting things ?
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| 17:29:24 | Meg Watson left the conversation |
| 17:29:41 | Daniel MD: I do, and sometimes it is hard to find new stuff
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| 17:29:41 | John Jullion-Ceccarelli: Well, there was a great article about doing a free-form project setup
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| 17:29:42 | Cesilko: Or others, do you mentioned that effort in reality ?
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| 17:29:50 | Thomas Corbin: Sorry, I find the netbeans web side somewhat intimidating.
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| 17:29:58 | Petr Vlček: We rather read blogs.
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| 17:29:59 | Alex Lam: the only times I know some docs are out is when ppl mention it on NB mailing list / blogs
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| 17:30:01 | John Jullion-Ceccarelli: http://www.netbeans.org/kb/articles/freeform-import.html
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| 17:30:03 | Cesilko: I know what you mean Thomas.
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| 17:30:10 | Glenn Holmer: John, maybe you should post on nb-announce when big new docs are put out there.
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| 17:30:12 | Masoud: i like to have some feeds on all subjects of netbeans.org website
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| 17:30:12 | Thomas Corbin: I wish I knew how to explain *why* I find it so intimidating.
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| 17:30:13 | John Jullion-Ceccarelli: Yes, it is pretty intimidating
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| 17:30:21 | Daniel MD: Let me just say that netbeans.org: It has issues
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| 17:30:34 | David Beer joined the conversation |
| 17:30:46 | Vano Beridze: The outstanding issue with the site is username bug.
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| 17:30:48 | John Jullion-Ceccarelli: So another thing we're doing is setting up a RSS feed with all the new tutorials, so you can subscribe to it without having to wander into the dangerous waters of nb.org
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| 17:31:01 | Thomas Corbin: cool.
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| 17:31:04 | John Jullion-Ceccarelli: It's coming Massoud, believe me.
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| 17:31:05 | avbravo: i think the great idea
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| 17:31:07 | Alex Lam: that's a good idea John
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| 17:31:20 | Masoud: very good John that is really needed
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| 17:31:23 | Glenn Holmer: +1
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| 17:31:27 | Cesilko: [17:30] *** 4. Offer some help ? *** Fine. This item is related to the previous one.
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| 17:31:33 | Daniel MD: +1
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| 17:31:39 | John Jullion-Ceccarelli: Another thing I've been working on is a new welcome screen that has an RSS feed reader right in it and shows you new NB blogs and articles right in the welcome screen
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| 17:31:49 | Alex Lam: I think the problem with the NB web site is rather that too much information from too many categories are competing
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| 17:31:49 | Thomas Corbin: Hey, I like the debugger!
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| 17:31:52 | RK: So when you are looking for info/a tutorial, how often do you find it on nb.org?
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| 17:32:06 | Alex Lam: ii.e., the web site interface has saturated
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| 17:32:10 | Dr.J: John, that is a GREAT idea
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| 17:32:13 | Masoud: new welcome Page is welcome
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| 17:32:23 | Alex Lam: if that is the case we can't really do much about it :-P
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| 17:32:29 | Cesilko: To be honest, we would like to get more people involved in the process. There is a page that describes 4 basic ways how to help NetBeans and community.
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| 17:32:30 | Thomas Corbin: One thing I've found hard to get a handle on is once I get a project started and then find out I want to change the configuration - now I want to do jsp or jsf and previously I was only doing swing - how do I go about changing the project?
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| 17:32:42 | Cesilko: Please take a look here and express your thoughts on the wish list.
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| 17:32:43 | Daniel MD: Help, well i don't know if Kai is here, but livebeans is not working, if kay does not get back to me in a couple of days i will start a new forum, if you wan to know more stay for after-hours. I will not steal the conversation right now.
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| 17:33:01 | John Jullion-Ceccarelli: right now, it's a pain. A good thing to do is click Docs and Support, then click Articles in the left side. that has an archive of everything that's been in making the most of netbeans sorted by functionality. i'm working on "Learning Trails" in the website where docs are grouped in a more sane matter
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| 17:33:02 | Alex Lam: Cesilko: would you mind providing the links?
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| 17:33:08 | Cesilko: http://www.netbeans.org/community/contribute/web-content.html Anybody willing to contribute some of the listed items ?
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| 17:33:11 | Masoud: can you provide FEEd for module catalogs too @John ?
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| 17:33:16 | John Jullion-Ceccarelli: Yes, please look and contribute!
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| 17:33:24 | Vano Beridze: When you decide to change the welcome page I hope it will be announced on webteam mailing list in order to have a chance to translate it
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| 17:34:17 | John Jullion-Ceccarelli: We've been trying to make things easier to contribute. We've put up a few templates, one for flash demos using wink http://www.netbeans.org/kb/articles/CreateWinkDemo.html and one for a tutorial http://www.netbeans.org/kb/articles/tutorial-template.html
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| 17:34:20 | Daniel MD: John: isnt' that an RFE? I am glad you guys are doing it anyway
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| 17:34:29 | Maxym Mykhalchuk: Hi Vano, the translation is not that simple, the actual news will not be translated, or?...
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| 17:34:31 | Masoud: one of those wish list is undergo@Cesilko
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| 17:34:41 | Cesilko: Which one Masoud ?
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| 17:35:22 | Vano Beridze: I understand. I think that it would be disadvantage to discard all translated old pages
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| 17:35:23 | Masoud: Using Facelets with NetBeans .
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| 17:35:34 | Alex Lam: oh btw the identification colours are running out Cesilko
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| 17:35:39 | Masoud: but more than just using facelets with netbeans
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| 17:35:40 | Thomas Corbin: One thing about netbeans and the recent looks contest. And I hate to say it.... but netbeans just doesn't look as good as I wish it did. I don't know why, but I suspect it has to do with spacing and other UI stuff that I don't know how to express. I compare it to most of my kde applications. To me, netbeans doesn't look or feel as solid.
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| 17:35:47 | Petr Adamek: @Cesilko I am translating NB into czech and I want to translate some documentation too.
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| 17:35:54 | Cesilko: So far I see everybody's name without problems ...
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| 17:35:54 | Alex Lam: there are only 4 colours to identify ppl in the chat room?!
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| 17:35:57 | Thomas Corbin: facelets would be nice.
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| 17:36:05 | Cesilko: Cool, thanks Petre !
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| 17:36:13 | Alex Lam: yes I do - but most of them are in black now
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| 17:36:27 | Vano Beridze: I counted 6
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| 17:36:40 | Alex Lam: yes I've just noticed the 5th color
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| 17:36:55 | Cesilko: Oh, that's true ! I will try to change that in the transcript.
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| 17:36:59 | Alex Lam: so yes counting black it's 6
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| 17:37:08 | Maxym Mykhalchuk: Red?
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| 17:37:14 | Alex Lam: green
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| 17:37:15 | Daniel MD: @celsiko link gives me blank page
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| 17:37:17 | Alex Lam: blue
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| 17:37:20 | Alex Lam: cyan
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| 17:37:21 | Thomas Corbin: I missed the start. Is that NetbeansChat java file an example from the start of the conversation ?
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| 17:37:23 | Scott Kneeland: Don't forget Mr silent here.
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| 17:37:35 | Alex Lam: pink and black
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| 17:37:42 | John Jullion-Ceccarelli: Of course, the thing that would be nicest would be to have wiki on nb.org, would make it much easier for people to contribute. we have the java.net one but i don't like having our info all over the place. there has been some grumbling about this internally and I think you could see some sort of wiki in the intermediate future.
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| 17:37:58 | Walter Barnes: would that be me? lol
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| 17:37:59 | Thomas Corbin: I love wikis. They are nice.
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| 17:38:01 | Cesilko: Which link @Daniel ?
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| 17:38:03 | Masoud: Scott , why are you silent
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| 17:38:05 | Petr Adamek: @John wiki is great idea
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| 17:38:15 | John Jullion-Ceccarelli: I don't want to be Mr. Pink. Why can't I be Mr. Black?
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| 17:38:15 | Daniel MD: http://www.netbeans.org/community/contribute/web-content.html
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| 17:38:21 | Walter Barnes: sorry about the silience... a bit too fast for me
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| 17:38:26 | Maxym Mykhalchuk: Tell that to Collab.net
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| 17:38:27 | John Jullion-Ceccarelli: Cuz Mr. Black is a guy on another job, now shut up!
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| 17:38:31 | Thomas Corbin Mr. Black!
| 17:38:34 | John Jullion-Ceccarelli: name that flick...
| | 17:38:34 | Daniel MD: @john My forum would have a wiki template
| | 17:38:36 | Alex Lam: Daniel: may be it's got flooded
| | 17:38:39 | Masoud: Wiki is great but i think there is a wiki in java.net? about netbeans . wiki is good if you can centeralize the content
| | 17:38:55 | Daniel MD: @masoued i think it is oonly for dev
| | 17:39:02 | Maxym Mykhalchuk: Yes, so the wiki must definitely be on netbeans.org
| | 17:39:30 | Alex Lam: do we not have a netbeans wiki on java.net?
| | 17:39:38 | Thomas Corbin: So, netbeans source is now or soon to be only java 1.5?
| | 17:39:48 | John Jullion-Ceccarelli: yeah, java.net has the wiki but most people don't know about it, it doesn't look very nice, and mostly it's not linked with netbeans.org in any way. we want something that'll allow wiki content without you feeling like you've totally left the netbeans world
| | 17:39:48 | Masoud: in case you are going to provide a wiki , then try to centeraize it , even if all dev/users content come to one wiki
| | 17:40:06 | Alex Lam: well as of the daily builds, it is Tiger already
| | 17:40:15 | Thomas Corbin: Cool.
| | 17:40:22 | Thomas Corbin: Love java 1.5
| | 17:40:26 | John Jullion-Ceccarelli: masoud, my thoughts exactly. want to have one web site to rule them all (and in the darkness bind them...)
| | 17:40:35 | John Jullion-Ceccarelli: i've been watching too much tv lately
| | 17:40:46 | Alex Lam: that's alright
| | 17:40:53 | Masoud: one ring to find them all ......
| | 17:40:55 | John Jullion-Ceccarelli: So who wants to write a doc? come on, we've got something like 25 people here, i'm sure I can convince someone to sign up for a doc...
| | 17:41:11 | Thomas Corbin: Sigh. Not time. And I sound too pompous when I write.
| | 17:41:13 | John Jullion-Ceccarelli: here's an easy one. an introduction to the new CVS system. lots of folks use it...
| | 17:41:13 | Alex Lam: a doc on?
| | 17:41:14 | Maxym Mykhalchuk: And what about Java 6? Will it be supported by NetBeans 5.5 or only by 6.0?
| | 17:41:16 | Cesilko: When ? Don't you write documentation all the time @ John ?
| | 17:41:18 | Daniel MD: I can do somehitng in mobility
| | 17:41:26 | Daniel MD: can't see wish list
| | 17:41:28 | John Jullion-Ceccarelli: here's the docs wishlist: http://www.netbeans.org/community/contribute/web-content.html
| | 17:41:36 | John Jullion-Ceccarelli: at the bottom
| | 17:41:38 | Daniel MD: i get blank page
| | 17:41:38 | Masoud: i will do facelets , as it is undergo
| | 17:42:02 | Vano Beridze: Can anyone answer Maxym's question?
| | 17:42:02 | John Jullion-Ceccarelli
* Porting Eclipse Plug-ins to NetBeans
* Porting SWT Applications to Swing/NetBeans Platform
* Porting a regular Swing programs to use the NetBeans Platform
* Working with new NetBeans CVS functionality
* Placing a NetBeans projects into CVS
* Setting Up a Local CVS Repository
* Checking out from CVS and doing headless builds
* Update NetBeans/CVS/SourceForge article
* Update NetBeans and SSH article
* Doing Java EE 5 Development in NetBeans 5.0 (5 in 5)
* Developing Spring Framework Applications With NetBeans
* Using the Tapestry Framework With NetBeans
* Using Facelets with NetBeans
* Developing EJB 2.1 CMP Entity Beans with JBoss in NetBeans
* Converting an EJB2 application to EJB3 with NetBeans
* Converting a Hibernate2 application to EJB3 with NetBeans
* Tag Library development in NetBeans
* RESTful web services with NetBeans (Jirka Kopsa"s idea)
* Integrating JDIC components with NetBeans
* Accessing MS Access/MSSQL from NetBeans
| 17:42:10 | John Jullion-Ceccarelli 1 oops, that didn"t work...
| 17:42:17 | John Jullion-Ceccarelli: sorry
| | 17:42:24 | Glenn Holmer: looked cool, though :)
| | 17:42:30 | Thomas Corbin:
| | 17:42:30 | Thomas Corbin:
| | 17:42:32 | Daniel MD: Hum... IE doesn't render from here, firefox does? wierd
| | 17:42:46 | Cesilko: Wow, I thought I have to run away from my computer ...
| | 17:42:46 | Maxym Mykhalchuk: About the wishlist... Will there be a new versioning plugin for anything else than CVS?
| | 17:42:50 | Peter VC joined the conversation |
| 17:43:00 | Daniel MD: @John, settign up local CVS is mine :=
| | 17:43:06 | John Jullion-Ceccarelli: daniel, try hitting refresh button. common problem with nb.org
| | 17:43:11 | John Jullion-Ceccarelli: sweet
| | 17:43:26 | Daniel MD: can i do it in flash?
| | 17:43:28 | Alex Lam: I tried refresh in IE7 and didn't work
| | 17:43:30 | Maxym Mykhalchuk: BTW, I can do "Update NetBeans/CVS/SourceForge article"
| | 17:43:40 | Alex Lam: but the NB's build-in browser works
| | 17:43:56 | Daniel MD: wierd ie doesn't seem to be rendering
| | 17:43:56 | RK: Alex, when you look at the page source, is the whole page empty or what?
| | 17:44:04 | Cesilko: Wow, cool. Come on guys !
| | 17:44:07 | Alex Lam: the page is there in the source
| | 17:44:08 | Maxym Mykhalchuk: It's what I do every day usually
| | 17:44:11 | John Jullion-Ceccarelli: sweet!!!
| | 17:44:22 | Thomas Corbin: *Is* there any special help or module for using netbeans and spring?
| | 17:44:41 | Alex Lam: RK: just blank in the browser window, that's all
| | 17:44:43 | Maxym Mykhalchuk: I mean NetBeans --gt; CVS --gt; SSH tunnel --gt; cvs.sf.net
| | 17:44:47 | Masoud: will any one look at : RESTful web services with NetBeans
| | 17:44:50 | John Jullion-Ceccarelli: Not that I know of. The article would be how to set up the libraries, perhaps add code snippets to the component template
| | 17:45:00 | RK: Alex: Now that's weird. And all other nb.org pages work in IE?
| | 17:45:10 | Alex Lam: RK: yes
| | 17:45:21 | John Jullion-Ceccarelli: thanx maxym! thanx Daniel! anybody else? any eclipse developers out there wanna explain how to port an eclipse module to nb?
| | 17:45:27 | Thomas Corbin: I would be neat to do something for spring like Geertjan does for wicket.
| | 17:45:34 | Alex Lam: RK: and the jackpot project page works
| | 17:45:47 | Masoud: JCC , porting eclipse module to netbeans is not trivial .
| | 17:45:52 | John Jullion-Ceccarelli: I know
| | 17:45:59 | Masoud: it will need more than a tutorial or article
| | 17:46:06 | Cesilko: [17:45] *** 5. NetBeans home page *** OK, let's go on.
| | 17:46:12 | John Jullion-Ceccarelli: Ok
| | 17:46:12 | Alex Lam: probably a module
| | 17:46:15 | Alex Lam: OK
| | 17:46:22 | Cesilko: How do you like our web pages ?
| | 17:46:25 | Kumar joined the conversation |
| 17:46:27 | Walter Barnes left the conversation |
| 17:46:32 | Cesilko: Simply put, do you usually find what you are looking for ? Do you think it should be restructured or it just needs new look and feel ?
| | 17:46:55 | Thomas Corbin: I'm so intimidated, I usually just use google to find a page, rather than go to the nb site directly.
| | 17:47:05 | Petr Adamek: @Cesilko It's quite difficult to find required information sometimes :-(
| | 17:47:07 | Thomas Corbin: I think there is a LOT there.
| | 17:47:10 | John Jullion-Ceccarelli: i'd be interested in what kinds of info you're looking for. I think it's obvious no one finds what they want...
| | 17:47:12 | Daniel MD: It needs allot of stufff, username issue must be solved
| | 17:47:15 | Alex Lam: well apart from the issue tracker, the download section and the bugs charts, I don't really find the rest that useful"
| | 17:47:16 | John Jullion-Ceccarelli: there's a ton there...
| | 17:47:18 | Masoud: i think nb site need a new LAF at the first step
| | 17:47:49 | John Jullion-Ceccarelli: what do you use most? downloads? issuezilla?
| | 17:48:02 | John Jullion-Ceccarelli: do you use our FAQs? tutorials?
| | 17:48:04 | Thomas Corbin: I think I need to use issuezilla more.
| | 17:48:06 | Daniel MD: Try to find artcils
| | 17:48:12 | Thomas Corbin: I use faqs, blogs, tutorials.
| | 17:48:15 | Alex Lam: yes, both downloads and issuezilla @John
| | 17:48:25 | Kumar: Yes I would agree with Masoud, the web site needs to more easier to navigate.. I don;t much care about LAF
| | 17:48:30 | Masoud: Download / issuezilla / Tutorials . but belive me the search functionality need iimprovement
| | 17:48:39 | John Jullion-Ceccarelli: yeah, search sux
| | 17:48:42 | Daniel MD: oh yeas
| | 17:48:54 | Dr.J: Downloads mostly, tutorials as new stuff emerges
| | 17:49:08 | Maxym Mykhalchuk: Restructured!
| | 17:49:11 | Alex Lam: I don't mind the news, but I'm not sure if a (potential) IDE user would like to see the news and featured titles when they first enter NetBeans.org
| | 17:49:29 | Cesilko: As for the poor search capabilities it's filed as http://www.netbeans.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=66160
| | 17:49:35 | Alex Lam: I'd rather be seeing some cool NetBeans screenshots and have a download button
| | 17:49:38 | Masoud: the login problem definitly should be solved for both nb.org and java.net . it is 2006
| | 17:50:00 | RK: Download button is being designed right now
| | 17:50:02 | Daniel MD: yes i have said this to romen once, i think nb main apge shoiuld look more like firefox
| | 17:50:06 | Masoud: Agree with Alex
| | 17:50:08 | John Jullion-Ceccarelli: So, like I said, we're working on a "learning trails" concept for our tutorials - group flash demos, training, and tutorials by development area. check out the matisse learning trail for a rough idea of what this could look like: http://www.netbeans.org/kb/articles/matisse.html
| | 17:50:24 | Petr Adamek: I think that would be useful to have some big list of all tutorials or other documents
| | 17:50:40 | John Jullion-Ceccarelli: yup, we're definitely trying to redo the main page, drop a lot of the garbage that's there, and have a big download button a la firefox
| | 17:50:52 | Roumen: this is the list you're looking for: http://www.javapassion.com/netbeans/masterindex.html
| | 17:50:54 | John Jullion-Ceccarelli: there is http://www.netbeans.org/kb/kb.html
| | 17:51:14 | Masoud: agree with petr , but a categorized list + a ISO or what ever image for all articles and tutorial for each year or version of netbeans could be really helpful.
| | 17:51:15 | Daniel MD: I am doing a list of all the update centers
| | 17:51:32 | Geertjan: Excellent idea Daniel MD!
| | 17:51:42 | Geertjan: I thought of the same thing but haven't done it yet,
| | 17:51:43 | Roumen: We were actually discussing the idea of an ISO before... with docs & demos
| | 17:51:56 | John Jullion-Ceccarelli: so if we had an ISO or a big "download all our docs" ZIP, would you download it?
| | 17:51:58 | Geertjan: Where are you making this list?
| | 17:52:00 | RK: and flash movies on a CD
| | 17:52:08 | Masoud: sure @john
| | 17:52:08 | Roumen: Sang Shin maintains http://www.javapassion.com/netbeans/masterindex.html
| | 17:52:26 | Daniel MD: @geertjan it will be on the forum/wiki
| | 17:52:29 | Maxym Mykhalchuk: Just look at the clearly designed http://civicspacelabs.org/home/
| | 17:52:43 | Geertjan: Excellent Daniel MD, let me know when it is there.
| | 17:52:46 | Cesilko: Yes, in other words what is the threashold of such ZIP size for you ?
| | 17:52:47 | Alex Lam: the master index looks good
| | 17:53:02 | Alex Lam: esp if the layout is improved
| | 17:53:15 | Daniel MD: @celsiko: one CD?!?
| | 17:53:17 | John Jullion-Ceccarelli: thanks maxym. yeah everybody, if you have an example of a docs and support page for other products that has tons of content and manages to present it in a sane way, paste the link here or send it to john.c@sun.com
| | 17:53:36 | Masoud: for me , for now : 200-300 meg . but in next few month i will have no limit on size
| | 17:53:59 | John Jullion-Ceccarelli: Dig the civic space design, so cool and clear. unfortunately we've got too many cooks in the kitchen, doubt we could ever boil it down to something so clean.
| | 17:54:21 | Cesilko: Really you have no problem with downloading 650 MB ?
| | 17:54:37 | Alex Lam: nope - esp if you do it in BT
| | 17:54:47 | avbravo: but not, free netbeans CD doc
| | 17:54:50 | Alex Lam: I've been downloading a few GBs per day
| | 17:54:57 | John Jullion-Ceccarelli: we could let people order a free cd as well... or have the netbeans dvd that has the installers and the entire doc set
| | 17:55:04 | John Jullion-Ceccarelli: BT he he he
| | 17:55:08 | Daniel MD: no not really Broadband here
| | 17:55:21 | Alex Lam: yes - is it too expensive to do DVDs instead of CDs?
| | 17:55:39 | Daniel MD: it usually takes me 30min to download 650MB (dependign on server speed).
| | 17:55:42 | John Jullion-Ceccarelli: hey, anybody want a saturday project? I wanna do a BT client based on the NB platform. only thing is I'm not a developer. I think it'd be a great way to spread the NB Platform message
| | 17:55:42 | Petr Adamek: Netbeans DVD with lots of documents is good idea
| | 17:55:42 | Masoud: I remember that in some stage Eclipse people used BT for solving thier server saturation of download requests
| | 17:55:46 | John Jullion-Ceccarelli: and defeat the evil SWT
| | 17:55:46 | Thomas Corbin: Hey, just convince the ubuntu people to include it! Then they'll be mailing it out on cd for you!
| | 17:55:48 | Peter VC: You may want to consider using something like the update center for the docs. People could "subscribe" to the docs they want, they would update automatically (as docs change often) and we wouldn't have to suffer the indignity of a 650MB download whenever a critical doc changed.
| | 17:55:50 | Cesilko: OK, I see.
| | 17:56:02 | Cesilko: [17:55] *** 6. What comes next *** And now the last item in our agenda.
| | 17:56:09 | Thomas Corbin: Oooh, bittorrent on nb would be tres cool.
| | 17:56:12 | Alex Lam: I'll see if I can @John
| | 17:56:25 | John Jullion-Ceccarelli: contact me offline if you're into it - john.c@sun.com
| | 17:56:31 | Cesilko: Are you curious what are plans for the future ? I am sure most of you already heard about NetBeans 5.5 being the next release followed by major release NetBeans 6.0.
| | 17:56:39 | Epesh joined the conversation |
| 17:56:40 | Vano Beridze: Jiri Is there any plans on NetCat?
| | 17:57:03 | Masoud: UC is not fault tolerant@Peter VC , so a big doc file can not be fetch by UC client
| | 17:57:05 | Cesilko: Yes, we will have NetCATs in the future !
| | 17:57:06 | Petr Adamek: @Cesilko Yes, of course
| | 17:57:13 | Epesh: Hello, all. When is the scheduled chat starting?
| | 17:57:23 | Cesilko: Briefly, 5.5 will be the first IDE to support Java EE 5. Its main drivers are: 1. EJB 3 session beans 2. Java Persistence Support 3. Java EE Application Client Support 4. Web Service 2.0 Support 5. Some more ...
| | 17:57:33 | Thomas Corbin: Epesh: it's almost over.
| | 17:57:37 | Vano Beridze: Jiri, Could you please tell us estimate start date of NetCat?
| | 17:57:48 | Epesh: Urgh - sorry I missed it.
| | 17:57:51 | John Jullion-Ceccarelli: java ee 5 is gonna totally rock. sorry to sound like a cheerleader, but as a docs guy, this is so much easier to document
| | 17:57:51 | Cesilko: Will do in a while.
| | 17:57:55 | Peter VC: Thats why you wouldn't package it as one HUGE doc - you'd keep them seperate so you'd only download the ones you wanted
| | 17:57:57 | Masoud: Vano , you really missed the NEtcat as i see
| | 17:58:05 | Cesilko: As for the 6.0, it's main theme will be new Java infrastructure with codename Retouche. It should most probably replace current MDR. The point is to dramatically improve editor features. Our goal is not to catch up Eclipse. We want to reach Idea's editor.
| | 17:58:13 | Epesh: glassfish is pretty nice except for the GC problems on redeployment.
| | 17:58:14 | Vano Beridze: Yes definitely
| | 17:58:26 | Kumar: Can some help me understand what is the difference between a preview version & q-build in the 5.5
| | 17:58:30 | Thomas Corbin: What editor features do you have in mind for 6?
| | 17:58:31 | Cesilko: If you want to know something about the dates, NetBeans 5.5 Beta will be available for JavaOne (i.e. mid May). FCS should be released in Q4 this year. Accordingly NetBeans 6.0 is targeted at JavaOne 2007.
| | 17:58:38 | Daniel MD: @CElsiko: applz for effort
| | 17:58:41 | Epesh: q-build is ongoing build, preview is a static build
| | 17:58:50 | Masoud: if your goal is ideal editor then you catched eclipse automatically
| | 17:58:56 | Cesilko: Context aware completion, super fast completion etc.
| | 17:58:56 | John Jullion-Ceccarelli: I saw a retouche demo that blew my mind. There's some close cooperation between the javac team and the netbeans team that allows some pretty amazing stuff in the editor, like when you put your cursor in a variable name and it highlights throughout the file, and in the error stripe, where the variable is used. start changing the variable name and it changes it throughout file on the fly. lots of other cool stuff. and that was stuff that we got for free with almost no development effort, when we really build on the javac apis we're gonna have the best editor in town
| | 17:59:02 | Alex Lam: I like this - I have been working with an IntelliJ programmer on a project and their editor do perform miracles at times
| | 17:59:10 | Peter VC: Any idea of which version of NB (5.5 or 6.0) will have native SVN support?
| | 17:59:12 | Glenn Holmer: Kumar, http://qa.netbeans.org/processes/q-builds-program.html
| | 17:59:13 | John Jullion-Ceccarelli: that plus jackpot. - as tony soprano says - fugedaboutit
| | 17:59:26 | Alex Lam: so it will be excellent to improve NetBeans' editor based on that
| | 17:59:58 | Epesh: since we're talking about NB, is there a concerted effort to populate the collab network going on? Most of the channels I'm on stay empty.
| | 18:00:00 | Vano Beridze: I remember promise to issue subversion plugin on auto update after 5.0 release
| | 18:00:14 | Masoud: Jiri , will we have a copetitor editor for netbeans 6 ?
| | 18:00:21 | Daniel MD: How about proejct looking glass? 3D is this going forward ?
| | 18:00:22 | Thomas Corbin: It sounds good. Does that retouche editor -changing variable thing recognize the difference between variables with the same name in different methods?
| | 18:00:37 | Cesilko: So, NetCAT 5.5 should start accordingly with NetBeans 5.5 Beta minus ~1 week.
| | 18:00:56 | Alex Lam: I think looking glass is still quite some distance away
| | 18:01:02 | Maxym Mykhalchuk: Subversion in a new versioning thing?
| | 18:01:06 | John Jullion-Ceccarelli: @Thomas - didn't get that deep into it. i'm sure our UI designers will make it all slick and cover the main use cases
| | 18:01:17 | Glenn Holmer: I just hope the editor doesn't get too in-your-face with things popping up all over the place. It's good to have help, but please let's don't have talking paper clips :)
| | 18:01:22 | Thomas Corbin: I'm sure they will, thanks.
| | 18:01:26 | Dr.J: Looking Glass takes a LOT of horsepower
| | 18:01:27 | Peter VC: My "Synchronizing files, please wait ..." box is stuck open
| | 18:01:35 | Thomas Corbin: It *does* sound exciting.
| | 18:01:36 | John Jullion-Ceccarelli: just close it
| | 18:01:38 | Alex Lam: close it then @Peter
| | 18:01:40 | Vano Beridze: Peter just close it
| | 18:01:43 | Peter VC: bah
| | 18:01:46 | Cesilko: Subversion is CVS successor.
| | 18:01:52 | RK: Peter: Mine too, and I have a fast connection...
| | 18:01:57 | Thomas Corbin: svn is much better than cvs.
| | 18:01:59 | Alex Lam: no, no paper clips
| | 18:01:59 | Daniel MD: @Glenn: I thnk i will forget how to code with NetBeans version 6.0.
| | 18:02:08 | Maxym Mykhalchuk: 2Cesilko: what you mean?
| | 18:02:10 | Thomas Corbin: netbeans "bob".
| | 18:02:20 | Masoud: Glenn , more on screen help you have , more productive you are . its eclipse favour scentence
| | 18:02:22 | Alex Lam: I think we should take Jackpot into NetBeans 6
| | 18:02:43 | Cesilko: You asked about Subversion not ?
| | 18:02:44 | Alex Lam: so we can apply Effective Java, PMD and Findbugs rules automagically
| | 18:02:45 | RK: We could have Geertjan's or John's face popup instead of Clippy :-p
| | 18:02:54 | Masoud: i think jackpot should have a good integration with netbeans 5 ,5.5 . there islong way until netbeans 6
| | 18:02:58 | Daniel MD: I Think the packs need open sourcing (specially Mobility Pack).
| | 18:03:00 | John Jullion-Ceccarelli: we have looked at doing a dynamic help window, something that's down in the corner and refreshes with links to javadoc and help topics depending on what's selected, either in the UI or the source editor. would you find that annoying/a waste of screen real estate, or would you find it valuable?
| | 18:03:07 | Vano Beridze: I think Subversion must be ready before beta to test it properly during netcat
| | 18:03:15 | Cesilko: We will provide Subversion support soon.
| | 18:03:19 | Maxym Mykhalchuk: 2Cesilok: Yes, I asked is it planned to have a Subversion plugin with the same capabilities as the new CVS plugin?
| | 18:03:21 | Cesilko: It will be @ Vano !
| | 18:03:23 | Masoud: [ot] any one from nbextras.org here?
| | 18:03:23 | Epesh: @john: waste, annoying
| | 18:03:25 | Alex Lam: Indeed - but Jackpot needs Mustang @Masoud
| | 18:03:32 | Cesilko: Exactly @Maxym.
| | 18:03:34 | Thomas Corbin: What about the effort to move the javadoc thing to your help window? Is that official or just for fun?
| | 18:03:36 | John Jullion-Ceccarelli: @RK you don't wanna see my ugly mug on your computer, believe me.
| | 18:03:51 | Masoud: you mean mustag features or mustag runtime?
| | 18:03:52 | Glenn Holmer: John, I would like that better. I was just talking with someone else on my team about how the Javadoc popup leaves you a little slit of code to see like window blinds...
| | 18:04:03 | Maxym Mykhalchuk: 2John J-C: Annoying. Ctrl+F1 rules!
| | 18:04:18 | Vano Beridze: Mustang really flies. I don't use jdk 1.5 anymore
| | 18:04:20 | Epesh: @glenn; Maybe if it slid out from the left hand side to obscure something OTHER than your code
| | 18:04:20 | Alex Lam: I think the MSDN dynamic help in Visual Studio is quite helpful @John
| | 18:04:24 | John Jullion-Ceccarelli: @Thomas - you mean the Javadoc preview in code completiongt;
| | 18:04:37 | Epesh: I can't use mustang since Glassfish still has problems with it for me
| | 18:04:39 | Alex Lam: may be it can act as a good start into the ideas @John
| | 18:04:52 | John Jullion-Ceccarelli: yeah, most likely position would be below the navigator
| | 18:05:00 | Daniel MD: What about Open Sourcing the packs will you do that? I mean Nokia is starting to be a player in mobility IDEs
| | 18:05:06 | Vano Beridze: I hope NetBeans 5.5 will target mustang as a runtime
| | 18:05:11 | Masoud: @JCC Creator has a dynamic help , like VS dynamic help
| | 18:05:11 | RK: Tomas: about retouche: yes I think it's the point of retouche that it can tell the difference between two variables that have the same name in different scopes -- else it would be just search and replace and we already have that.
| | 18:05:13 | Cesilko: [18:00] *** 7. What each NB developer fears the most ? *** Finally, I wanted to share something cool with you.
| | 18:05:30 | Epesh: What about integrating JSC's JSF components into NB somehow?
| | 18:05:55 | Masoud: I fear the next morning i wake up and see that NB web site is down
| | 18:05:57 | John Jullion-Ceccarelli: here's the kiss of death question. anybody use the online help system? if yes, what sucks about it? if not, why not? would you want the whole online help system to be on the web so you could google it, or would that just give you too many bogus results when you're googling for tutorials?
| | 18:05:57 | Daniel MD: Epesh: you are late, already mention, tht yes it will happen
| | 18:06:01 | Masoud: lol
| | 18:06:14 | Epesh: daniel: sorry about that
| | 18:06:15 | Peter VC: You can add all the autocompletion, auto help, "do what I'm thinking now" stuff - just make sure there is a way to disable individual features
| | 18:09:17 | John Jullion-Ceccarelli: @vano - do you like Creator's implementation? Is it helpful?
| | 18:09:30 | Kumar: Trying convince my director to use Netbeans and while demoing the GUI freezes
| | 18:09:30 | Alex Lam: well if the online system is down, we will be crying for help @John
| | 18:09:30 | Alex Lam: Cesilko: hey you managed to break a build? :-O
| | 18:09:30 | Peter VC left the conversation |
| 18:09:30 | Alex Lam: hmmm... there seems to be a major lag since my own messages are not appearing...
| | 18:09:30 | David Beer left the conversation |
| 18:09:30 | Maxym Mykhalchuk: 2Cesilko: I fear my boss! Oh no, he's coming to the offfice, minimize, minimize, ohhh
| | 18:09:30 | Maxym Mykhalchuk: Online help sucks. Is it possible to move to external browser?
| | 18:09:30 | Glenn Holmer: The golem! I always wanted to see him!
| | 18:09:32 | Vano Beridze left the conversation |
| 18:09:32 | Maxym Mykhalchuk: Oops. I got disconnected
| | 18:09:32 | RK: @Masoud Hehe Me too
| | 18:09:32 | John Jullion-Ceccarelli left the conversation |
| 18:09:32 | Masoud left the conversation |
| 18:09:32 | Daniel MD left the conversation |
| 18:09:32 | Masaki left the conversation |
| 18:09:32 | RK: And the auto completion should not slow you down or interrpt when you already know what to type and type quickly.
| | 18:09:32 | keip left the conversation |
| 18:09:32 | Michal Hlavac left the conversation |
| 18:09:32 | Alex Lam left the conversation |
| 18:09:32 | avbravo: i'm think that the integrationc with JSC's
| | 18:09:32 | avbravo: drag and drop for the java server faces support
| | 18:09:32 | Epesh: @john: mainly it doesn't have enough support from modules
| | 18:09:32 | Cesilko: Tim Boudreau has already published it in his blog a week ago. Look at the picture I have just shared with you. This is our famous Golem.
| | 18:09:32 | Dr.J: Yes, I use the on-line help. I think it's quite good.
| | 18:09:32 | Petr Vlček: I fear garbage collector .
| | 18:09:32 | Cesilko: Can you guess why everybody fears him ?
| | 18:09:32 | Dr.J left the conversation |
| 18:09:34 | Peter VC joined the conversation |
| 18:09:43 | keip joined the conversation |
| 18:09:53 | Glenn Holmer: Isn't he the guy NB developers have to have on their desk if they break the auto-build?
| | 18:10:09 | RK: woah, what was that, a netsplit?
| | 18:10:33 | John Jullion-Ceccarelli joined the conversation |
| 18:10:35 | Daniel MD joined the conversation |
| 18:11:13 | Scott Kneeland: Did we lose our group for a moment?
| | 18:11:28 | Cesilko: I think it was caused by the size of the picture.
| | 18:11:30 | Maxym Mykhalchuk: 2John Jullion: I use Online Help, but mostly to read Ant manual. It sucks a bit, because, well, JavaHelp sucks...
| | 18:11:37 | Cesilko: Can you see it now without problem ?
| | 18:11:37 | Daniel MD: Hum... NB crasehd on me
| | 18:11:44 | Cesilko: Glenn is right !
| | 18:11:51 | Scott Kneeland: I was just paused for 4 min
| | 18:12:03 | John Jullion-Ceccarelli: yeah, i got kicked off so i lost the history. wish collaboration coudl save the history
| | 18:12:10 | RK: Oh you shared the golem... that slowed everything down... weird
| | 18:12:19 | Roumen left the conversation |
| 18:12:25 | Cesilko: The explanation is described here: http://weblogs.java.net/blog/timboudreau/archive/2006/03/the_netbeans_go.html In short, if you do a CVS commit that breaks the build, you need to have this ugly ceramic statue visible on your desk. And be sure that everybody else knows what this means ...
| | 18:12:39 | Daniel MD: damn you golem
| | 18:12:43 | John Jullion-Ceccarelli: he he he
| | 18:12:46 | RK: right-click the window and choose save
| | 18:13:01 | Cesilko: Yes, that's why everybody fears him ! :-O
| | 18:13:03 | Kumar: Sometimes I feel the responce time of the GUI is very slow.. (maybe there is some conf. I am missing_
| | 18:13:05 | Peter VC: like the dunce cap of olde
| | 18:13:17 | Geertjan: Thanks RK didn't know that (I haven't been talking much because I'mw rokign on the Wicket app).
| | 18:13:26 | Scott Kneeland: The Golem created a tidal wave and threw many a sailor into the sea.
| | 18:13:31 | John Jullion-Ceccarelli: work on your spelling instead, bucko
| | 18:13:39 | Daniel MD: LOL
| | 18:13:53 | Geertjan: Yeah yeah whatever dude.
| | 18:14:10 | Maxym Mykhalchuk: 2John: About online help. Is is possible to move to external web browser (but bundle help files with NetBeans)?
| | 18:14:13 | Cesilko: So we are done. I hope you liked it.
| | 18:14:31 | Daniel MD: it was caos, but lovelly
| | 18:14:49 | Kumar left the conversation |
| 18:14:53 | Vano Beridze joined the conversation |
| 18:14:55 | Alex Lam joined the conversation |
| 18:14:55 | Petr Vlček: 2 Cesilko: It was very funny, thank you. Hope it helped you a bit.
| | 18:14:55 | Cesilko: And as I have said, I will provide transcript tomorrow. My IDE didn't crash so I saved the history.
| | 18:15:19 | Cesilko: Sure ! We have bunch of things to think about ...
| | 18:15:22 | keip left the conversation |
| 18:15:31 | Jiri Prox left the conversation |
| 18:15:33 | Alex Lam: right it was my turn to get kicked by the server
| | 18:15:39 | Peter VC: Is there any logging built into the collab modual to capture history?
| | 18:15:42 | Geertjan left the conversation |
| 18:15:56 | John Jullion-Ceccarelli: @maxym - having the help in external browser is double-edged sword. it's nice cuz it's decoupled from the IDE window. but it's bad because you can't do anything like link between helpsets, link to actions in the IDE (we don't do this much now but would like to) etc.
| | 18:16:12 | Vano Beridze: Man I'v been disconnected. Was that a surprise ?
| | 18:16:26 | Maxym Mykhalchuk: OK, John
| | 18:16:26 | Daniel MD: @John, a word: Are you guys really going to implement a wiki? And what is the license of the documentation?
| | 18:16:26 | John Jullion-Ceccarelli: @Peter - no, you have to manually save it. so if you get kicked off you're screwed...
| | 18:16:35 | Alex Lam: it was for me @Vano
| | 18:16:53 | Masoud joined the conversation |
| 18:16:55 | Cesilko: Unformated transcript shared ...
| | 18:17:03 | Daniel MD: it was golem
| | 18:17:19 | Masoud: aha , i come back .
| | 18:17:26 | Alex Lam: think so
| | 18:17:38 | Alex Lam: welcome back Masoud
| | 18:17:44 | Cesilko: Cool surprise, wasn't it ? @Vano
| | 18:17:51 | John Jullion-Ceccarelli: @Daniel - officiall, I know nothing, I hear nothng, I say nothing... unofficially, we're testing out internally how it would work. we'd open up an area, I think, that would be a sandbox for the community. anything under there would be totally open source by default (no licensing) but I guess our lawyers will have a field day with that.
| | 18:18:08 | Alex Lam: I'm still stuck on how to do an instanceof for primitives
| | 18:18:10 | Masoud: i get a very unfamiliar error , duplicate session detected, from Collab module
| | 18:18:10 | John Jullion-Ceccarelli: as to when and how... well, everything seems to take a long time...
| | 18:18:28 | Alex Lam: I've got 2 copies of Daniel as well
| | 18:18:40 | Daniel MD: JJC: OK then, i will do my stuff not waiting for your stuff
| | 18:18:43 | Alex Lam: thought cloning is illegal
| | 18:19:02 | Vano Beridze: OK guys It's been a fun to chat with you
| | 18:19:09 | Masoud: i have two copy of many of my friends , it is a known bug though
| | 18:19:16 | Alex Lam: nice to meet you too Vano
| | 18:19:17 | Cesilko: Yes, that's known issue. @Alex
| | 18:19:19 | John Jullion-Ceccarelli: yup, i gotta run too. see y'all fun chat.
| | 18:19:29 | Daniel MD: Ok cya
| | 18:19:32 | Scott Kneeland left the conversation |
| 18:19:34 | John Jullion-Ceccarelli left the conversation |
| 18:19:37 | Cesilko: OK, see you !
| | 18:20:02 | Masoud: is the official chat ended ? so we are open to talk ?
| | 18:20:02 | Glenn Holmer left the conversation |
| 18:20:05 | Daniel MD: I also have some "clones"
| | 18:20:22 | Cesilko: Yes, now you can talk whatever you want ...
| | 18:20:25 | Daniel MD: yeap official is over: WELCOME to AFTER-HOURS
| | 18:20:26 | Masoud: does any one say new BEA workshop ? version 9.2 based on eclipse
| | 18:20:30 | Alex Lam: now that the official chat has ended - is there anyone who could help me with my java code here? :-P
| | 18:20:43 | Cesilko: After-Chat begins ...
| | 18:20:52 | Epesh: @Alex: that's a problem with the collab module - not enough people USE it
| | 18:20:58 | Alex Lam: thanks for the hard work Cesilko
| | 18:21:03 | Masoud: when you will publish transscript
| | 18:21:12 | Epesh: i.e., ejb3, general, javaee, javaserverfaces, etc -- all empty, all the time
| | 18:21:23 | Cesilko: Well, I think I was kind of useless here ... Anyway thanks !
| | 18:21:35 | Cesilko: Tomorrow. Will work on it during night.
| | 18:21:36 | Masoud: @Jiri .and as you saw there is a high demand for netbeans chat
| | 18:21:37 | Alex Lam: @Epesh: I know, and I don't normally use collab this way anyway :-P
| | 18:21:54 | Cesilko: What topics would you welcome next time ?
| | 18:21:59 | Masoud: will you work on preiodic chat program ?
| | 18:22:08 | Epesh: Grrr, I'm in here as "Epesh?"
| | 18:22:11 | Daniel MD: Alex: i never worked with java 1.5 , i am mobility guy
| | 18:22:14 | Alex Lam: @Cesilko: you act well as a topic leader and moderator
| | 18:22:22 | Maxym Mykhalchuk: See you
| | 18:22:29 | Daniel MD: See Maxym
| | 18:22:54 | Alex Lam: Daniel: it's not a java 1.5 problem really - the instanceof keyword has been around for a long time
| | 18:22:57 | Cesilko: Don't know yet. If you liked it I can organize another instanceof Chat.
| | 18:23:04 | Alex Lam: see you Maxym
| | 18:23:20 | Masoud: i think we can talk about : new features for editor , port of JSC to nebeans , port of UML and enterprise package on netbeans ..
| | 18:23:25 | Alex Lam: Cesilko: that would be an overkill
| | 18:23:45 | Alex Lam: oh UML and new editor is good
| | 18:23:46 | Maxym Mykhalchuk left the conversation |
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